User talk:Jemann

From Fallen London Wiki


Hi, welcome to Echo Bazaar Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Take the keys from her by force, with restraint page.

To find out more about how to contribute to the wiki, please visit Editing Guidelines. Check out the Quicklist page for a quick reference to rewards and icons. You can also ask questions on the Forum:Index for any other editing concerns.

Happy Editing!

PS. Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything else! -- Neonix (Talk) 04:24, June 21, 2011

First post![edit]

Ohai, I just noticed that our timezones weren't that far apart! I'm used to seeing people (online) from the other side of the world~
Neonix (talk) 23:02, January 31, 2012 (UTC)

Hi there. <Insert mandatory NZ joke> Yes, it is refreshing to communicate with someone in the middle of the day, rather than in a narrow window at either end. Somehow I'm not surprised this game has a world player-base.
Jemann (talk) 23:39, January 31, 2012 (UTC)

Amber Confusion[edit]

I am confused as well - I replied in the talk page.
Neonix (talk) 06:37, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

Also replied there. 'Tis a puzzling affair.

Edit: And, resolved. I blame society.
Jemann (talk) 06:49, February 7, 2012 (UTC)
There there. XD I tried it on my firefox, and it shows the old version as well. Maybe it's time to move to Chrome? (Google's going to rule the world I swear)

PS. I only noticed your post on the talk page when you edited your own user page - and even that was by chance. Perhaps a forum post or a PM would be better when reporting these kinds of issues? :D
Neonix (talk) 07:33, February 7, 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I added the talk page first, then discovered it didn't show up on wiki activity. If no-one replied to the odd edit I would've raised it further.

A knowledgeable sysadmin told me that Chrome had security problems, so I'm avoiding it for now. Oddly enough, a quick Google search tells me that Chrome has the best security. COINCIDENCE?
Jemann (talk) 07:56, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

Neonix (talk) 08:59, February 7, 2012 (UTC)


I must congratulate you on your new yacht. :D
Neonix (talk) 22:41, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, thank you *wipes away tear* I've been grinding away for at least a week for my gambling stake, and was pretty much resigned to failure on my first attempt. Now I sail away for a while, hoping Mr Apples is not vengeful...
Jemann (talk) 23:29, February 8, 2012 (UTC)


Quite busy with the new content, aren't you? :D
Neonix (talk) 07:47, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Just a tad. It's enjoyable to be paving the way, for once, rather than picking through the wiki for things no-one else has done. Also exhausting.
Jemann (talk) 08:40, March 18, 2012 (UTC)
I would help, but alas I'm still gathering the pieces. I hope to catch up by the end of the week (assuming favorable circumstances)
Neonix (talk) 09:01, March 18, 2012 (UTC)


May I just say you are on A ROLL today! XD

Also congratulations for being ranked #1 on the wiki. :D You do deserve it.
Neonix (talk) 05:51, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

Why thank you :) Silas Merriweather, a recent escapee of indistinct gender, is progressing quite nicely.

I admit that in the early days I was aiming for achievements, but the wiki has become its own addiction (worse than laudanum?)...
Jemann (talk) 06:15, April 15, 2012 (UTC)
Appropriately, I just earned the Caffeinated badge for 100 edits in a single day.
Jemann (talk) 12:34, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

Welcome to the team![edit]

With great power comes great responsibility. Well, you seem to have the responsibility thing down, so might as well give you power to go along with it! :)
Neonix (talk) 06:47, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Cheers! I will try not to bleed on the carpet (or mess up the templates).
Jemann (talk) 06:55, April 16, 2012 (UTC)


Thanks for cleaning up my mess! I'm new to the editing/adding pages, but I really wanted to put out the groundwork for the new stuff they're rolling out so that people would'ne be too entirely confused as to what's going on. Cheers to you for making my mess functional. (And now I know to go back and add Categories to things I left blank)
Funkimonster (talk) 05:38, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

That's cool - you're getting all the core info down, which is the vital part. The categories can usually be added after the fact by people who haven't even done the story...
Jemann (talk) 05:46, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

Editing Permission[edit]


I'm on a personal mini-quest to figure out the new Quirk caps that were recently put into place. I'm mostly testing the Intimate of Devils storyline right now. I just made my wikia account today and I'd like to participate, but I need permission. I keep running into this message:

"You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason:

This page has been protected to prevent editing."

I read the Editing Guidelines, but they don't address this situation. Hrm, what should I do now? By the way, nice mask-hat thingamabob! :D
ZDee (talk) 06:21, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

Pericles was a stylish dude.

Are you clicking on one of the Edit links next to 'Success' or 'Failure'? Because that attempts to edit a template, rather than the page you're looking at. The green Edit button next to the page title is the one you want. Confusing, I know.

If that's not the problem, then... I dunno.

And welcome! It would be good to see all those caps updated.
Jemann (talk) 10:24, January 21, 2013 (UTC)
A stylish dude, indeed. It could not have been better worded!

Ahhh, yes, that was exactly my mistake! I thought the green Edit button was only related to "History" and "Rename". All right, I'm glad that's sorted out. Thank you for your welcome and assistance.
ZDee (talk) 10:58, January 21, 2013 (UTC)

I am afflicted with a severe case of dumdums.[edit]

Assistance, please!

I need you to teach me how to align bullet points and text along the *middle* of a picture's side. I fiddle with images over and over, I try all sorts of combinations using the text tools, and yet I still can't get the buggers to line up straight. I've spent thrice as much time hammering images into place than actual writing. Where's my "Haphazardly Hammered Page" badge??

If there's a FL wikia tutorial with step-by-step photos, please link me. If you're wondering why the pages I've edited for the past few weeks look okay, it's because I cheated this way:

find a page with relevant photos and words already printed --> copy relevant stuff from reference page --> paste relevant stuff into new page --> edit the pasted stuff --> voila, neat-looking edits!

My lucky streak of cheats ended when I encountered an edit that needed a photo I couldn't copy from anywhere else; it was the first page referencing it. Blargh. :( I updated our shoe catalogue but it looks like a downgrade:
ZDee (talk) 11:27, March 4, 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking...[edit]

...maybe we should update a little bit main page? It's almost the same from two years and game is changing. Maybe we could link this whole banner with Fallen London and remove small link above it. I don't think that we still need content for Items and Menaces so much but we do need for sure some Guides.

We have just few categories in main page (Accomplishments, Ambitions, Opportunity Cards etc.) but in game there's more (Acquaintance,  Major and Minor Lateral and others). It's too much to add all of them to main page buy maybe we could add also link to category:Qualities and put there ALL those categories, like in game (but of course leave most important categories in main page too). Maybe it will be easier for new players and people who don't know this wikia as much as we do.

I was hoping that we can add Events category to the main page (or maybe someone have some better name for it, if I can understeand it without checking dictionary than it's definetly not good enough :D).

Am I the only with "Invalid tag extension name: forum" under Forum activity? I hope someone will understand my mumbling... -_-'
Varissaelle (talk) 14:17, March 4, 2013 (UTC)

Two priority requests:

1) Update the small link above our wiki banner to the new storynexus FL link.

2) Make those big, bright and bleeding "Invalid tag extension name: forum" words go away never to return. They make my eyes shrivel up and I suspect I'm not the only one to feel this way.

I agree with Varissaelle's recommendations. When I first stumbled upon this wiki last year as a new player, I didn't use the category links on the main page since they seemed random and incomplete.

Even now, I rarely find myself using the category bar at the top of the page. It's hardly intuitive (ex: non-related categories like "Connections" and "Acquaintances" filed under the "Places" tab, categories "Ambitions" and "Menaces" filed under "Opportunity Cards" tab, etc.), so please reorganize them.

Varissaelle, what do you mean by an "Events" category? Are you referring to the annual holiday events like the Feast of the Exceptional Rose and Mr Sacks' Visits? I think they should all be compiled under their own category labeled something obvious like "Unique Holiday Events" so people can immediately know it's something they won't have immediate (or any) access to during normal gameplay. I also think the holiday category should be linked and displayed prominently on the front page. Many players might not know there's an archive of holiday events to read.
ZDee (talk) 15:42, March 4, 2013 (UTC)
This all sounds good. You guys should get right on to that :) But seriously, I'm a little busy in RL and I'm trying to avoid more excuses to procrastinate.

I made a couple of changes. The 'invalid tag exception' glitch should be fixed (no magic on my part; apparently any change to the main page would have given the wikia engine the appropriate nudge to recheck it). I made a couple of adjustments to the navigation bar, but it still needs some thought (maybe Stories/Qualities/Items as main headers?) The hard work is generating content that doesn't come direct from the game - collecting things together under headings like Qualities or Events, so that new users can find their way from there.
Jemann (talk) 22:20, March 4, 2013 (UTC)
Hooray, the awful red glare is gone from the main page! *congratulatory toot*

Cool, we've got an Events category now! Since Alexis stated that he would release more pre-warned and unwarned time-limited events in the future, it should be pointed out to players; give the Events category its own space on the main page with an explanation. Hrm, something like "An archive for unique events that have happened in Fallen London such as seasonal events and hourly-timed events." or anything else to give players the impression that it's highly exclusive content that's easily missed.

Here's my outline for a navigation bar that might be more helpful for new players and intuitive for veteran players:

Navigation Bar (left to right)

Places (Top to bottom, mostly in alphabetical order of early game to late game access. Wait, we can list from top to bottom, right? If not, this will get messy.) Lodgings Mrs Plenty's Carnival Ladybones Road Spite Veilgarden Watchmaker's Hill Shuttered Palace The Flit The Forgotten Quarter Wolfstack Docks Mahogany Hall The Foreign Office The Labyrinth of Tigers The University Wilmot's End Other Places (or whatever category which compiles upper access areas like the various islands at zee and special places like the Crowds of Spite or Ambition-specific locales)

Items (similar to our Items page, meant to look like a player's inventory)

Hats Clothing Gloves Weapons Boots Pets Curiosities Advantages Goods Academic Cartography Contraband Elder Infernal Influence Luminosity Mysteries Nostalgia Rag Trade Rumour Wild Words Wines Rubbery (Hey, why is Rubbery last? Oh my gosh, it's evidence of FL discriminating against the Rubbery Men! ...Or the coders listed it in a rush a while back and forgot to alphabetize it.) Affiliations Transports Home Comforts Ships Constant Companions Clubs


Bag a Legend Heart's Desire Light Fingers Nemesis

Contacts (mostly alphabetical after removing "The" and putting difficult ones like the Masters and the University factions at the end)

Bohemian Church Constables Criminals Docks Duchess Great Game Hell Orient Revolutionaries Rubbery Men Society Tomb Colonies Urchins Benthic Summerset Masters of the Bazaar


Enquirer Minor Poet Pickpocket Tough Campaigner Enforcer Journalist Rat-Catcher Trickster Watcher


Wounds Wounds Cures Scandal Scandal Cures Suspicion Suspicion Cures Nightmares Nightmares Cures Other Menaces (or whatever category we use to compile Unaccountably Peckish, Noise and so on)

Quirks Austere Daring Forceful Heartless Hedonist Magnanimous Melancholy Ruthless Steadfast Subtle Sign of the Chiropteromantic Zodiac

I'm ambivalent about making a Quirks Guide. I think they're meant to be gained or lost by players while making personality-defining decisions in the game. On one hand, it seems counterproductive to list "X and Y Ways to Be More Charming or Hateful!" when it should be a natural process to garner and display character growth. On the other hand, I think some of the FL options which give or take away quirks are inaccurate (ex:"The true love that you had to abandon", "Well, those clouds are quite pretty", "A maniac... again") so we can't fully trust FL to judge our characters. :p

Alexis has said that Quirks will play a larger part in the game in the future. That's why they were recently capped. I bet they'll be used as Block and Unlock requirements. The minmaxers will want a guide.

I'm against the idea of creating a navigation tab which lists major storylines word-by-word (ex: Intimate of Devils, Plotting Against the Masters, Scholar of the Correspondence, etc.) because they tell a new player too much from the titles alone. It removes some surprise and excitement, the sort you should feel when you encounter such storylines for the first time in-game. Besides, don't players usually use the search bar to hunt down a specific storyline? Let 'em do that!

Do we really need specific Guides? Isn't this entire encyclopedia guide enough? Do new players often get stuck? I think the most confusing part of FL for a new player is the storyline system which depends on drawing the proper opportunity cards to continue, but the mechanism is explained at the beginning of the game with the New Newgate Prison tutorial. Knowing which opportunity cards to draw can easily be solved by searching for the storyline here.

An Echo grinding guide could be useful for those pursuing an Overgoat or Hesperidean Cider. We could ask Urthdigger to make one. I can already predict what he's gonna write: "I've researched hundreds of ways and ran thousands of trials to optimize moneymaking. You will only care for the Fidgeting Writer's storyline or camping at Hunter's Keep. Here's a guide to quickly obtaining the items necessary for the Fidgeting Writer." :p Seriously, go ask him.

Ugh, this wasn't supposed to be so long. I blame's preference for double spaced writing.

EDIT: Destroyed list format 'cause the hideously long double spacing was making me twitch.
ZDee (talk) 08:50, March 5, 2013 (UTC)
A guide to the navigation bar

The top level can have 4 links; each tab under that can have 7; each of those can have a vertical dropdown with 10 links. I'm working out a possible bar now...

Edit: Done, for now. Given the lowest level only holds 10 links, listing all the Connections takes two separate sub-menus - ugly. As I said in the edit comment, the Connections page could be formatted like the Items page - an icon and a link to each Connection, possibly more information.

Also, the Most Popular menu is pretty cool.
Jemann (talk) 21:06, March 5, 2013 (UTC)
The new navigation bar looks much better. :)

Yeah, 10 dropdown links isn't quite enough for our needs. Lemme handle the restructuring  for the Connections page. It would really benefit from a new listing format with icons. I'll add descriptions, too. I'll do this within the next couple hours.

I think we should just use URL for "Items". The Sources and Uses pages are good technical indexes but they're too cluttered for personal use. The Items category page is much easier to browse. It's one of my favorite pages, too! :P

The Most Visited list is amusing. Everyone wants sunshine, the Correspondence, salaries, stolen kisses and white glim, ha.
ZDee (talk) 14:54, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
'holidays' on the front page (under stories) really sounds like you're taking your character on holiday, tbh.  

Temporary events or so instead?
Aximillio (talk) 16:02, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
I tried revamping with description text. I later removed all of it because it unnecessarily lengthened scrolling (even after I shrank the images to 31 pixels).

I'm not sure if the Glass and Shroud icons are correct... I don't currently have those connections, so I can't personally check.

I, too, think "Holidays" should be renamed now or later to something like "Timed Events" because the word's relevance is temporary. Eventually, Alexis will release more time-limited events that have nothing to do with the holidays. "Holidays" would then be a subcategory of the overarching timed events category. Names, everyone? "Unique Events"? "Special Events"? "Limited Events"? "Singular Events"? "Irregular Events"?
ZDee (talk) 18:13, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
Glass is correct at least, assuming Chrome is not showing me an outdated image...

The page looks *much* better now- I guess it could be enough to have the descriptions on each contact's page?

I still think "Temporary Events" is a broader term than those, but I guess some (Irregular Events, Holiday Events (and Minor Events or such?)) could be subcategories?
Aximillio (talk) 18:35, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
Glass is a card fan

Shroud is a fat crystal ball (very confusing for newcomers to Mahogany Hall!)

It'll have to be enough to have the descriptions on the individual Contacts page because it's distinctly unattractive when you put them together on the Connections page. Here, look for yourselves:

Haha, see what I mean, guys? I HAD to remove the description text. You don't see it in the link above, but I originally used regular-sized icons and that looked far worse. Yep, for the sake of a fast Look 'n' Click page, the text had to disappear.

I don't have a specific preference for the name of the overarching events category. As long as people immediately understand what the category means when they read it, it'll be fine.
ZDee (talk) 19:15, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
I quite like Occasional or Unique or Singular Events, but Temporary Events is the broadest name, although a little drier than I'd like. It'll suit for now.
Jemann (talk) 21:40, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

I don't have permission.[edit]

Can you add this:

importScriptPage('ShowHide/code.js', 'dev');

here: ?

To be honest, I have noooo idea what I'm doing but we can always delete it ^_^'.
Varissaelle (talk) 12:53, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure it's necessary? I just found this:

which has a note about its features now being available by default (they point to ). Are you trying to do something clever with collapsible elements?
Jemann (talk) 13:41, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
I'm trying and trying but it just don't work for me and I don't know where the problem is.

Maybe in the future we could use it in Companion page because it's long right now.

I was checking the same pages but I barely understand it. :(
Varissaelle (talk) 13:56, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
Added it. Should be pretty easy to take out I guess.

I tried using the collapsible class on a list, but nothing happened - possibly it only works for tables or big slabs of text.

Edit: I tried this in the sandbox, and it seemed to work OK (although not in Preview). The Expand/Collapse button is also showing at an odd location here:

| An attempt at
| a collapsible table
| Some content
| for the table
| It doesn't seem to work
| in preview mode...
Jemann (talk) 22:48, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
Yay! It works! I can't believe my eyes! I was always checking it in preview mode, I'm so dumb.

Bottleandglassredsmall.png for you Jemann, for figuring that out.

Now I can take my pail, shovel and rake to the sandbox, yay!
Varissaelle (talk) 06:57, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
I wouldn't call that dumb; more like a reasonable expectation. But you're welcome; now go make the wiki pretty(-er)!
Jemann (talk) 08:16, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Varissaelle wrote:

Maybe in the future we could use it in Companion page because it's long right now.

Using collapsible lists sounds like an excellent idea, but it leaves me wondering...why do we even have a "Companion" page?? It's a redirect from the "Pets" page. Shouldn't there only be a "Pets" page? It's the official FL name for that section of your inventory. Besides, the "Companion" category also clashes confusingly with the "Constant Companions" category names-wise. Can't we just move everything to the Pets page and delete the Companion page?

By the way, I'm sorry if people received several hundred emails the other day detailing my minor updates to the Nightmares images. :X
ZDee (talk) 11:59, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
I concur - I wasn't around in earlier days, but I assume Companions was the original name of what's now become Pets. Normally a redirect from one to the other is sufficient, but with Constant Companions as another category again it gets confusing; shifting to Pets makes sense. Although rather than deleting the Companion page, I'd leave it with links to the other two.

Changing all the Companions to Pets could be boring. Hmm, lots of identical, minor updates: sounds like a job for...
Jemann (talk) 12:50, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
...our star editor JEMANN! :D

What? *glances around with shifty eyes* ...No? Oi, I'm just a freelance editor! I don't even get free coffee 'round here! ...Oh, okay, fine. I guess someone's gotta do the menial tasks. :P
ZDee (talk) 13:05, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
Yup, Pets was Companions at the beginning. Boring job, yay! I want it! I want it! Can I have some boring job?

Uh.. and ZDee was first. Maybe next time...
Varissaelle (talk) 13:11, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
I just know you're burning with envy. Yeah, yeah, better luck next time...

Hey, Varissaelle, now that the "Pets" page is finished, you can finally add those lovely collapsible thingamajigs!

Now off I go to update every page with "Companions" text to "Pets" text -- JOY!
ZDee (talk) 13:24, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

What's with all this grunting in the fen?[edit]

We had 2 Story pages and 1 Category page with the name "Grunting Fen". For the sake of making coding easier for casual contributors, I turned the first "Grunting Fen" Story page into a Redirect page for the category. I renamed the Story pages so this is the current setup:

Grunting Fen (1) redirects to Category:Grunting Fen (you don't see the 1)

Grunting Fen 2 is the Story page which unlocks the area

Grunting Fen 3 is the Story page which allows you to explore the area

I'm afraid this might confuse readers:

The Unlock link leads them to Grunting Fen 2 and the first Progress link leads them to Grunting Fen 3. Isn't that strange? Shouldn't I leave a Wiki Note explaining the numbering system? Should I try something else?

Input, everyone?
ZDee (talk) 19:47, March 20, 2013 (UTC)

It seems like a balance between confusing readers and contributors. This way the reader looking for either the place or the storylet will end up on the category page, which will point them to the rest; that seems like a reasonable result.

Feel free to add a note to Editing Guidelines; that page is already a mess.

In this case the numbers could be one lower.
Jemann (talk) 23:04, March 20, 2013 (UTC)
Good point! The Category page should be considered 0 and the Story pages can be 1 (unlock) and 2 (exploration). I don't think a note will be needed if I rename them that way; I'll refrain from contributing to Editing Guidelines' mess.
ZDee (talk) 23:15, March 20, 2013 (UTC)


Just wondering whether it's better to write #REDIRECT Page, or #REDIRECT and add the page in a category?

Just for consistency?
Aximillio (talk) 19:48, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

I don't really understand the question - please elaborate?
Jemann (talk) 23:37, March 27, 2013 (UTC)
When you make a redirect page, you can choose between writing #REDIRECT Whatever page you want to redirect to and writing #REDIRECT, then add the page to the category of choice an it redirects there.

My question is whether we have a standard for this?
Aximillio (talk) 00:07, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
Huh, was not aware of the second option. Does the redirect page then show up in that category?

I favour the first option - explicit redirect to the category. That's certainly been the standard practice on this wiki. The second would still be acceptable though.
Jemann (talk) 00:23, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
Linking with Page doesn't add the page to a category.

An example:

The page Category:What the Thunder Said hasn't got What the Thunder Said listed in the category list.

The page Category: Is Someone There has both Is Someone There and Is Someone There? listed in the category list.

The page Special:WhatLinksHere/Category:What_the_Thunder_Said also lists pages that link to the redirect page, but Special:WhatLinksHere/Category:Is_Someone_There doesn't show pages that link to redirects.

Which of these would be more convenient? (Adding categories also doesn't work with the delete template and such, I think, since that gives it another category)
Aximillio (talk) 14:38, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
The support in WhatLinksHere for explicit redirects is a clincher, for me. All signs point to the first option (explicit redirect to the category) being the better one.
Jemann (talk) 22:22, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
Kay, I'll change Is Someone There and Is Someone There?. I won't be raiding redirects to check (Not sure if that's even possible?), but I'll remember it for the future.
Aximillio (talk) 22:32, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

New Templates for Expandible/Collapsible Text[edit]

I digressed too much on your Silver Tree blog post, so I'll continue the conversation about non-Silver Tree stuff here:

"Creating a template for a collapsible paragraph of text should be easy enough (CollapsiblePara? HiddenText?). But anything involving tables is generally so customized to the content that a template wouldn't really be appropriate.

If need be I can always mess with your tables to make them functional, but aesthetics is not my thing either (as a graphic designer I make a good programmer)."

I'm nixing the table templates; it looks way too hard. :P Plain expandible/collapsible templates should still help. Sure, "HiddenText" sounds like a fairly self-explanatory name for such a template.

How about templates HiddenText1 and HiddenText2?

1) Content that fully appears upon loading, but capable of collapsing (Shadowy section):

2) Content that's hidden upon loading, but capable of expanding (Dangerous section):

Now we can make lengthy pages like "Editing Guidelines" and "Quicklist" craaazy longer yet easy to navigate! I'm going to leave the creation of these templates to you because I personally possess a slender grasp of the pertinent code. :-| ...On second thought, maybe we should just write a short guide for expandible/collapsible code in "Editing Guidelines"? I think the hardest part is not being able to properly Preview the code; there should be a note about that either way.

As for the Iron Republic Days flow chart, I'll make a draft of some sort and show it here before trying to code it. I will need help making the cells/tables...DUUUNDUNDUN! Don't say I didn't warn you. Thanks in advance! *scampers away*
ZDee (talk) 04:31, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

OK, added ExpandableSection and CollapsibleSection templates. The drawback to these is not being able to visually edit a parameter in a template - so you need to either be very familiar with source editing, or build up the content outside the template before copying it in.

OTOH, apparently one can also call templates with {{Subst:TemplateName}} - this outputs the formatted template into the current document, after which point it's editable. That may be the best way to use these... although so far I haven't tried this.
Jemann (talk) 05:58, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. YAY...I think?! :D Frankly, much of this is flying over my head. I'm the editor who took 2 months to realize what the numbering system for templates Card0 to Card6 meant. I'm bullrushing this and hoping everything turns out okay -- and if it doesn't, I can turn to more talented code editors to salvage things?! (Haha...) Here, you should add the new templates along with a good explanation:

Digressing again, but what sort of formatting do you prefer for archiving mechanic text? By "mechanic text", I mean hints and instructions that relate to game mechanics (e.g. "This will reduce your dream quality slightly, but may provide other benefits." and "A matter of luck: it could go either way."). Here's a page with both:

The game now mostly uses italics and/or bold fonts for its mechanic text. I've read pages which use I & B and those which use [brackets], and I prefer the latter. I've decided to use plain text for luck challenges and brackets for other mechanical text; it reads better that way and it's faster to edit.

I think the wiki looks best with a consistent editing style, thus I want to know your opinion. I'll adopt whichever style you prefer, but I won't relent on stuff like "Scandal is increasing...(5 CP)" because I feel an intense urge to scrunch ellipses and CP's together to blend them into one sentence!
ZDee (talk) 06:30, March 28, 2013 (UTC)


Having read the calculations system I'm now completely confused.

1. How do I record the broad difficulty? Is the formula: [broad.diff]=[stat]*0.66/[%success]?

2. Could you please change the templates so that the "Difficulty" header would link to your post? Because otherwise casual or new users like me don't know what "broad diffuclty" is.

3. Alternatively you could take a look at editting Sryth foe template (3rd-6th parameters) here:

The idea is similar to Fallen London: @9 in Syrth is like the success percantage Fallen London would give when your stat equals the broad difficulty level and it's also calculated by deviding the player's stat.

Could this be implemented here?
Vae Victis (talk) 11:24, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

1. That's about right, although sometimes it's slightly higher or lower (especially as the difficulty gets higher, i.e. 70+). Also, the multiplier was changed earlier this week to 0.65 (and seems likely to keep gradually dropping until it hits 0.6).

2. That's a good point. The Broad difficulty is written up in the Story Nexus documentation and has been talked about on the official forums, but I guess the casual user's not likely to read or know about it. I don't know that I'd make it part of the template - there's a fair number of challenges that use luck, or use the old narrow difficulty when testing a non-standard stat - but including a simple link (to Broad, say) would make sense. I'll look into writing something more definitive.

Thanks for the reply; it's good to get fresh perspectives on this stuff.

Edit: Wrote an article on Broad difficulty, with a redirect at Broad. So a challenge could be listed as Broad, Dangerous X (easy to enter in the template or in source mode as Broad, Dangerous X). Aximillio, ZDee, does this seem reasonable?
Jemann (talk) 11:45, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the reply.

Do you want me to put just the calculated Broad Difficulty in the article, or do you want me to put the success percentages as well to see whether the difficulty multiplier is changing, or do you want to put the percentages in the comments to the article?
Vae Victis (talk) 13:06, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable, Jemann.
Aximillio (talk) 14:23, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
Last night, I dreamt of a magical template that calculated Broad %'s for us... Failing that, I'd still like to see the Attribute (Dangerous, Persuasive, Shadowy, Watchful) #'s for percentages 70, 80, 90, and 100 listed. Most people will want solid numbers listed for high success %'s.

I think many readers are used to checking challenge information for preparation back when Narrow difficulty was champ. Giving them one Attribute number for 65% (or whatever base FL uses for Broad) doesn't help much unless they're willing to do the rest of the math which case, why bother reading the page when they can just switch their characters' Attribute gear to see their max playable %?

Speaking of gear changing, I'm annoyed half the time to discover that I'm over a card or storylet's Attribute cap after redressing:

1) Unlock a card at Watchful 100 which gives me 70% success

2) Put on +Watchful equipment to raise myself to Watchful 125

3) Locked from playing card because I'm beyond Watchful cap of 120 for that card

4) Intense Irritation Ensues!

5) Do quick mental math to remove equipment till I'm Watchful 120

6) Play card at last

...And this is why I believe we should start adding Attribute caps! :P

I'll start adding the Broad link to challenge information when it's sensible. I've only recorded 8-12 pages with Broad %'s and I feel as if I've already reached my Broad quota for two lifetimes; it's a frown-maker!
ZDee (talk) 14:31, March 28, 2013 (UTC)

ZDee wrote:
I'll start adding the Broad link to challenge information when it's sensible. I've only recorded 8-12 pages with Broad %'s and I feel as if I've already reached my Broad quota for two lifetimes; it's a frown-maker!

I have to agree with this. I'm not sure what would be the best solution, though.
Aximillio (talk) 14:42, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
Regarding this:

"Also, the multiplier was changed earlier this week to 0.65 (and seems likely to keep gradually dropping until it hits 0.6)."

I, too, have this awful feeling that it might continue dropping till it reaches the StoryNexus default of 60%. At the least, we should mention which Broad base % we used when we recorded our Attribute numbers:

Challenge information

Persuasive 30 (Broad 62%)

If the base never drops below the current 65%, then great! We can simply edit out the Broad base %'s after such confirmation.
ZDee (talk) 14:53, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
The occasional drop in the multiplier is why I've opted for calculating the difficulty level; that at least remains the same, while the exact numbers for 70, 80, 90% will keep shifting.

I suspect the 60% base is the end goal - it's the default for StoryNexus, and it's used to test Potential in the new Writer's Desk storyline. Would be happy to be proved wrong... In the meantime, any other helpful numbers we include will just need to be recalculated at the next  change. What we really need is a little pop-up calculator app. Hmm. Will have to look at what level of JS can be used on wikia.

Attribute caps: absolutely add them as you discover them. Unlocks are shown right there on the card/storylet; discovering the point at which they disappear is valuable information.
Jemann (talk) 22:47, March 28, 2013 (UTC)
Stupid suggestion: Forget about Broad Difficulty and the Difficulty Multiplier - those are technical details with no real intrest to most users. What people want to know is at what stats they have high-risk encounters and at what stats they get low-risk enocunters.

This is easy to calculate because Diff.Multiplier/Broad.Diff is the derivative of the Success Percentage function. Now imagine:

Template Challange recieves four numbers: Stat1, %Success1, Stat2, %Success2.

Der.Challange = (%Success1-%Success2)/(Stat1-Stat2)

Template gives expected Stats(X%) for Success Percentages at 10%,20%,30%,40%,50%,60%,70%,80%,90% simply by by deviding the Success Percentage by Der.Challange.

This obviously is only good for challanges that have gradual success increase from stat=0. What to do in Encourage her to marriage and a family? There the function obviously starts at stat=70, which means you need another variable:

Mark.Up = Stat1 - Der.Challange*%Success1

Stat(X%) = X%/Der.Challange + Mark.Up

I think those calculation could be done with Wikia templates alone and don't need any JS (hence the Syrth example above).
Vae Victis (talk) 00:48, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

I worry that the difficulty level will also change. The FL team keeps tweaking this and that... I'm afraid we'll one day wake up to discover that all our characters have turned into ducks with quadruple digit attributes. ...Or am I the only one who's had this nightmare?

Arrrgh, let's stop talking about the 60% base! It'll really happen if we keep hounding the issue! Anyway, I absolutely support a Broad calculator for players. I wasn't aware we could construct something like that on wikia. I just figured a FL fan would eventually get fed up enough to code a Broad calculator for a webpage and we'd link to that. :p Us making one sounds dynamic and awesome! And by "us", I mean you and anyone else with moderate coding capability -- definitely not I; my fanciest coding achievement has been making text collapsible. (Once you see the source code, you'll realize it's not even half an achievement -- it's rather a quarter.)

Sadly, my characters are 90's or above in their attributes; I'm barred from checking the early game content. This is when editors like Vae Victis with lower attribute characters become indispensable! How should we record the caps?

In the Unlock section?

Unlocked with Dangerous 102 to 138, 20 x Memory of Light

Or make a separate Locked section?

Unlocked with Shadowy 65, Making Pies for Mrs Plenty's Carnival

Locked with Shadowy 90+ or Chased Out by Carnies

Take into account the various unlock/lock factors like a Connected score or a story quality. Maybe a simple and short entry of requirements should use the first example while a longer entry should be split up like the second example?

@Vae Victis:

Your idea sounds fantastic to me! :D I still think we should try to make a calculator thingamajig for players who want exact %'s, and it would complement your Challenge formula code. It could replace whatever Challenge Information code we currently use in the Action template.
ZDee (talk) 02:57, March 29, 2013 (UTC)
100% support for a calculator; mainly because that means I won't have to manually figure it out.

Most cards/storylets don't have overly complicated unlocks/locks, so for those using X to Y works.

Take Take on the engagements as a different example. Here it could be possible to have a new line for locked with Scandal 3. Not 100% certain how much use it is, though. Or would it help tidy up a little more?
Aximillio (talk) 03:13, March 29, 2013 (UTC)
Yes, that page is a good example! I don't want to make pages pointlessly longer, but a separate Locked section is better for certain cases. I think it'd look neater and enhance comprehension for a reader if Take on the engagements looked like this:

Unlocked with Connected: Society 20

Locked with Scandal 3 or higher

Or maybe "3+"?

Fallen London is still in its beta stage and that'll probably last for a few more years. Considering the recent platform move to StoryNexus and the subsequent introduction to new intricate story mechanics, I expect we'll encounter complicated unlock/lock combinations in the future. When archiving, using our best judgment should be enough.
ZDee (talk) 03:30, March 29, 2013 (UTC)
So using between X and Y when things that are tested blocks the card/storylet (like Browse the society romances, and most cards) and 'Locked with' when something that isn't tested locks the card/storylet? I guess that could work.
Aximillio (talk) 03:40, March 29, 2013 (UTC)
* chin scritch* Hmm, how should I put it? This is how I typically try to edit:

1) Imagine I'm a new FL player who's reading this wiki for the first time.

2) Imaginary check to see if said player would instantly understand what I just wrote...

3A) ...No?

Revise till it's easier to read and/or ask the opinions of others. Return to Step 1.

3B) ...Yes?

Pat self on back.

3C) ...Not sure and feeling stuck?

Pretend this problem never existed. :P

There are a lot of variable unlocks, so choose whichever listing method you think will speed understanding best for a new reader. If a player is sitting in front of his/her/its computer for 2+ minutes puzzling over what was read, then it could probably be improved. I really can't think up a good guide for these blasted Unlock/Locks.
ZDee (talk) 04:21, March 29, 2013 (UTC)
Another option is to include it as a 'reverse unlock' e.g. Unlocked with Connected: Society 20, Scandal < 3 (or Scandal 0-2?). But yes, it's ultimately up to your own best judgement.
Jemann (talk) 05:29, March 29, 2013 (UTC)
"Scandal 0-2" is good, too. I used "Locked with Scandal 3 and above" because 0-2 isn't technically correct... You know how it is with those change points in levels; it'd be more accurate and confusing to say "Scandal 0 to 2 2/3", haha. I didn't want to risk readers thinking Oh no, I have 1 CP over 2 in Scandal. Now I can't unlock the storylet! so I opted for the other option.

Speaking of change points, do we have a player guide for those? A simple explanation of the game's leveling mechanic and how once you reach 50 in an attribute, all future CP's required to level up become 50? I didn't even know it was 50 CP till Tesuji pointed it out in the FL forums...roughly 8 months after I'd started playing... It wasn't very obvious!
ZDee (talk) 06:09, March 29, 2013 (UTC)
We could use the mathematical notation for open and closed intervals e.g. Scandal [0-3). I'm sure those are widely understood, ha ha ha.

There's a forum thread here about CPs, but no real guide as such.
Jemann (talk) 22:00, March 29, 2013 (UTC)
"I didn't want to risk readers thinking Oh no, I have 1 CP over 2 in Scandal. Now I can't unlock the storylet! so I opted for the other option." <-- I JUST remembered that I DID read this on a forum last year somewhere, but I think the situation was 2 CP over Level 2 in Scandal. It was even about Take on the engagements in particular! I stumbled upon it from googling Scandal (it was the first time my character had gained any, and I was worried I'd be thrown back in prison for it, LOL).

Anyhoo, I'd like to try my hand at writing a little guide for Change Points. I'll get it done sometime within the next year  -- er, week...preferably week.

EDIT 1: I also read your Watercooler post about Seeking Mr Eaten's Name.'s_Name_and_content_dumps?t=20121130001658

I really want to read the storyline from beginning to end without personally playing it. I have this odd aversion to destroying my characters. :p Are we seriously not going to post the entire storyline word-by-word? Frig, I don't wanna make a new Seeker character but I may have to do that now... :( It's already very difficult to progress the Mr Eaten storyline, and Alexis has promised us that it'll become far harder, so it's a shame interested players won't be able to read the rest of the content if no one records it. If anyone's got a highly detailed Mr Eaten document they want to share with me, please PM me on the FL forums.

EDIT 2: I'd like to present a new 5-step plan to archiving Seeking content:

1) Fully and faithfully record the story page's contents.

2) Keep it intact for 2-3 days.

3) Censor portions of it (change some words to --- and replace some reward sentences with a black icon).

4) Keep the censored page for 2-3 days.

5) "Delete" all the page content with creepy in-theme messages like [A damp shadow consumed this page.], [THERE WILL BE A RECKONING] or [All shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well...well...well...wellwellWELLWELLWELLS].

(Do not change or remove story links and categories, though. If you did, it would just become a headache for everybody.)

If a player wants to read the original page, they could still find it by digging through History. It's extra work for everyone, but I think it's a good compromise for the players who want to read everything and the developers who don't want everything readily accessible. If we do something like this, I think the various pages which show you how to attain the Story Quality "Seeking Mr Eaten's Name" should be left alone. Those are a huge help and hint that such a storyline even exists.

I am not fond of this idea because I want to read everything immediately and easily...but I also don't want to permanently delete our recorded content this way. That was one of my favorite pages...ever!!
ZDee (talk) 23:39, March 29, 2013 (UTC)
This is just sad. The devs of Academagia and other multi-choice-adventure games actively encourage a wiki for their game!

And the saddest thing is that the devs can shut down this or any wiki they like because everything in here is copyright material. If it came to that Wikia would side with them.
Vae Victis (talk) 01:43, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
I guess we could always ask them and see what they say?
Aximillio (talk) 01:48, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
Off topic: Could there be a trivia section for possible literary influences? Because I could swear that Lilac is inspired by Pratchett's Night Watch.
Vae Victis (talk) 01:52, March 30, 2013 (UTC)

ZDee wrote:

Nah, I meant early game options like


I want to check their success text to see if "Something else will happen soon" is now "A living story will begin soon" (along with any other changes)...but I don't want to bother with making a new account merely to check those options! Hopefully, someone with a low-stat alt will come along soon to update the pages.

Just so you know =)

Also: User_blog:ZDee/Relic_Pages
Aximillio (talk) 02:00, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
@Vae Victis

Oh, I don't want you to think that the FL developers are anti-wiki or anything. They're cooperative and friendly people. The story "Seeking Mr Eaten's Name" is a very special case, though. It's the brainchild of FL owner and head writer Alexis Kennedy. It's a story which explores fantasies of failure. Most adventure games grant players splendid fantasies of success like piles of treasure, interesting friends, fun pets, heroism which garners immense praise, fame and admirers, and so forth. FL's Seeking is all about failure such as exhausting grinds, mental torment, physical torture, soul-searing betrayal, futile pursuits, friends abandoning you, nightmares which enter your waking hours, and at the end... A reward? No, your character is permanently deleted. (Ahaha, I joke, I joke, but this was seriously considered by the FL team at one point!) Anyway, something excessively horrible happens as your "reward" ending. Sounds awful but intriguing, doesn't it?

Alexis has particular wishes for Mr Eaten's story which do not necessarily extend to other FL stories. He wants interested players to actually play the game to experience the story; reading about someone else's tragedy is nowhere the same as experiencing it yourself. He also wants to see how many members of the active player base would destroy their characters for the sake of piecing together a masochistic puzzle. It's an artistic hobby project for Alexis.

Most people will never get to see the entire story for one reason for another (if they don't read an archived version). We know this because FL has ~20,000 active players, yet ~200 of them are Seekers (as stated by Alexis). I really don't want to harass that 1% about their soul-crushing Seeking when I can just read it here. But if we could all easily read Seeking content here without the hardships, then who would ever play the story? ...20 people?

I don't know what sort of letter Echo Bazaar@wikidot received; I only see the one Jemann posted so I'm reacting to that one.

"Night Watch" is one of my favorite Discworld novels! :) Who or what do you think relates to Lilac?


Yeah, let's have Jemann ask Alexis! And, ooh, nice catch there with the Living Stories. I'd already forgotten. XD


Bargain hard for full archival! Don't let Alexis walk on you just because he's the equivalent of God for Fallen London and capable of destroying all your characters' hard work. Whoo, Jemann!
ZDee (talk) 04:17, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
Nup, not me; I agree with Alexis on this one. In-game, your character goes through suffering and torment to uncover this (probably useless) secret knowledge; to read through it on a wiki over a cup of tea defeats the purpose.

 I've PM-ed you my notes though, since you asked.
Jemann (talk) 05:22, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
Reading the story with a cup of tea is the entire purpose! :P

Shucks, I guess I really will have to join the deranged ranks of Seekers. I obtained PoSI status on an alt a couple minutes ago. It'll be refreshing to work from the ground up with a new alt...before wrecking its life by Seeking.

So, how should future Seeking content be archived? Card and storylet pages with option titles and nothing else? Like this page?

Thanks for the notes! Popping over to forum to check...
ZDee (talk) 05:54, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
Or keep a summary of actions, just so we know what seekers mean with things at the Carnival etc.?
Aximillio (talk) 14:37, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
ZDee, thank you for the explanation. I'm now terrified of that story line.

"Night Watch" is one of my favorites too! Definitely one of Pratchett's best works. I've wrote about the similarities here: User_blog:Vae_Victis/Trivia:_Lilac_inspirations?
Vae Victis (talk) 16:14, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
"I'm now terrified of that story line."

This is the appropriate response. :)

If you ever start the Seeking story (accidentally or otherwise), there will be multiple chances to rid yourself of the story during the first stage and a few other chances during later stages. There will also be various warnings from the game like [For the love of all that's good and holy, please stop. Don't do this to yourself.], so you'll have a very good idea of what you're falling into...if you allow it.

I read your blog post. I see what you mean. It seems possible that Lilac is partially based off the "Night Watch" character, though I believe her state of dress and name are largely based off the meaning of the purple lilac in the language of flowers: the first emotions of love. "Night Watch" specifically talks about purple lilacs, but I think of the white ones for the novel (white lilacs usually mean "youthful innocence" and sometimes "memories"). The Lilac card was something made for this year's Feast of the Exceptional Rose, the FL equivalent of Valentine's Day. The card will probably disappear soon, but I'm sure the character will return. Once you've uncovered more of FL's lore and raised attributes to 70-90's, I highly recommend you read, an archive of timed events. You could do it now, but you won't get most of the "AH-HA!" moments till you've learned more of FL's secrets and puzzle pieces. You might confirm or change your opinion on Lilac and many other characters.
ZDee (talk) 17:44, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks,ZDee, I'll keep that in mind - for now my stats are in their late teens.
Vae Victis (talk) 19:59, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
Once you're watchful 30, I'm sure someone will *love* to invite you =P
Aximillio (talk) 20:56, March 30, 2013 (UTC)
@Vae Victis

They shoot up fairly quick in the early game till you're in the 30's; that's when you have to start dealing with Menaces. From there, you'll be in the 50-60's fast enough just from exploring storylines naturally. It doesn't start to feel grindy till you encounter some of the 60-70's area options (lots of repeat clicks), or at least that was my experience at the time; FL frequently adds major stories, so your experience will probably be better than when I started last year with less content. I hope you stick around long enough with us to enjoy the next Christmas event. :)


LOL, someone privately asked me before I even *made* the account. I'll have to contact him again once I hit Watchful 30. This is what Seeking has become: you have to trap targets before they're even available. :P
ZDee (talk) 00:22, March 31, 2013 (UTC)
Calculators are done :) See Broad difficulty for the three variations that seemed most useful.

You may still see a black box with code above each calculator - that should go away once your browser stops caching the old CSS styles (still can't convince my primary browser to catch up, though).
Jemann (talk) 05:25, April 7, 2013 (UTC)
Vae Victis (talk) 05:29, April 7, 2013 (UTC)
Y.E.S! *fist pump* :D

Thank you very much! Your lovely new calculators have instantly doubled -- perhaps tripled -- the usefulness of the wiki.

I'd like to start listing challenges this way:


[insert attribute # here] - modest 70%

[ditto] - very modest 80%

[ditto] - low risk 90%

[ditto] - straightforward 100%

(You can calculate your chances easily at Broad.)

People can safely guess at 75%, 85% and 95% that way and it leaves the challenge list length short. If I'm in a hurry, I'll just list it as Broad, Persuasive [difficulty #]. And, no, I wouldn't use the brackets. :p
ZDee (talk) 09:57, April 7, 2013 (UTC)
Sounds awesome!
Aximillio (talk) 11:03, April 7, 2013 (UTC)
So @ZDee has already discovered the new challenge info generator. I'll just note here that for difficulty levels under 65, it's not completely accurate - it finds the first attribute level that would exceed a given probability, which may be one or more percentage points higher. e.g. with a difficulty level of 50, a quality of 47 actually works out as 61%, not 60%. At some point I'll look into iteration and loops, but for now it'll have to do.
Jemann (talk) 01:11, April 9, 2013 (UTC)
I've used the generator dozens of times today! :D I'm so grateful you coded it to spit out a code-friendly version.

I entered rounded down numbers as difficulty levels for the generator. If the Difficulty Level calculator gave me an answer of 36.97, I used "36" as input for the Challenge List Generator, 21.62 became 21, and so on. I fiddled with attribute equipment on my low level alt earlier for testing; the challenge lists produced with rounded down numbers were mostly in line with FL's %'s.
ZDee (talk) 01:30, April 9, 2013 (UTC)


How do we get rid of the large subcategory pictures? I mean the ones below the Tier 3 table. I want to erase them for the following reasons:

1) They dwarf the Tier 3 table.

2) They're in the way of more important information (the index links) below them.

3) They unnecessarily lengthen the page and cause a reader to scroll longer. I'm not implying everybody's gonna develop Carpal Tunnel Syndrome from scrolling through this page, but having those pics there certainly don't help! :P

Is there source code we can use to make those automatic link pictures vanish? (I don't know what they're officially called...) Someone, please teach me how to turn them on and off. They're useful for some pages but not all.

The different Items category pages (e.g. Hats, Clothing, Boots in particular with its deformed Scandalous Scarlet Stockings pic) would also benefit from having those pics removed.
ZDee (talk) 05:53, March 31, 2013 (UTC)

It's called a Category Gallery:

You can remove it by adding __NOCATEGORYGALLERY__ to the top of the page. I just did it for Profession, so it appears to work OK.
Jemann (talk) 09:54, March 31, 2013 (UTC)
Hooray, thank you! :D

When I attend the next Cutlery & Wax Enthusiasts club meeting, I promise to put you on the bottom of the list of people I plan to stab in the face. <3
ZDee (talk) 10:13, March 31, 2013 (UTC)

I'm done with spamming Photos[edit]

Please check to see which ones should be deleted or not... There's a long procession of "hunt" and "stealth" pics I placed there from my frenzy. They're probably part of a loading shot for a social action. I figured I'd upload 1-10 just to be complete, but now I sorta regret it. Same goes for the "advicebutton"; I stopped myself before I uploaded any other buttons.
ZDee (talk) 07:05, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

Well now I'm curious how you found them... will delete the 'animation' series, anyway,
Jemann (talk) 07:54, April 2, 2013 (UTC)
Heh, Aximillio asked me the same thing earlier!

Diligent snooping is how we found a bunch of new pictures! ;)

If you go to this looong page, use your browser's search function to look up some interesting keywords:

1) "knife" --> K&C-specific list

2) "headers" --> area-specific banners list (didn't find anything new yet like the Pillars or Carnelian Coast, but people can look at Flute Street's banner)

3) "icons" --> alphabetical list of the usual icons

I guess the page loads a certain amount of KB and stops to prevent freezing someone's PC; that's why the code abruptly halts at "fezman" in the icons folder.

Maybe you should put a passage in "Editing Guidelines" for uploaders to get both the large ***.png and small ***small.png pictures when they find a new photo URL.
ZDee (talk) 08:15, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

Increase your Casing... quality: a chat with Fast Hetty's husband[edit]

"Adding Delete marker - has this card been removed?"

I worked my Casing up to 18 four times ro rob the Brass Embrassy and never saw this card. I also grinded my Casing up till I had 100% success for each Flit robbery and never saw this card. There were several other miscellaneous Casing robberies, too; again, never saw the dang card. I was even drawing my deck in The Flit.

The card's content might return as a storylet in a future heist or something, but it's been removed for the past few months.
ZDee (talk) 07:40, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

I was pretty sure it was removed, around the same time as Criminals got a lot harder to raise. I tend to hold off on deletions in case things reappear though.
Jemann (talk) 07:44, April 6, 2013 (UTC)
Agreed, let this remain in the Candidates for Deletion section for a while longer.

It's possible it'll be merged with a future Fast Hetty storyline, or at least that's my hope. She was supposed to be the greatest thief of the Neath till the devils caught her robbing them at the Brass Embassy and consequently mutilated her to death or somesuch, yeah? I'd like to hear more of her exploits. Who knows, she might not be really dead. It's not as if her alleged corpse was identifiable.
ZDee (talk) 07:52, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

It's a little thing, but...[edit]

... could we not delete page contents when marking them for deletion? I prefer to know why I'm deleting a page, which means I'll need to look through the page history to find out what used to be there. kthxbye :)
Jemann (talk) 07:12, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

I thought we were supposed to give you extra work by making you go through the page History... What, no? This isn't standard procedure? ;) Oh, FINE, I'll do it your way.

On a totally unrelated note, my Inbox messages for social actions are blanking out. I think the K&C actions work okay; I know who's plunged a dagger into my backside recently. All other social actions are invisible:

(40 minutes ago)

(54 minutes ago)

(2 hours ago) "A box to return your kindness, dear Zee Dee. Best wish, Dangerous Beans."

(5 hours ago)

The "2 hours ago" is when Dangerous Beans sent me a Boxed Cat. He attached a note to his Boxed Cat delivery and that didn't disappear, but everything else vanished. Is there a fix for this? It just started today.
ZDee (talk) 19:21, April 16, 2013 (UTC)
@ZDee, I got this bug as well.
Aximillio (talk) 19:44, April 16, 2013 (UTC)
Okay... I suppose I'll roleplay this as a mass hallucination episode. Write it all off as spore fever or something. Zeedee is already "Hearing Things...or are you?" so I'll just roll with it.

I bet this "bug" is going to be a "feature" for Seekers down the road as they turn stark raving mad. After all, Alexis did say that Seekers would later experience things on their accounts that might appear to be system bugs, but they'll actually be intentional for the full effect of losing one's mind.
ZDee (talk) 20:18, April 16, 2013 (UTC)
My alts, who never have been seeking (yet) also have this bug, so it is indeed a bug. There's probably just some issues with the social actions system.
Aximillio (talk) 21:42, April 16, 2013 (UTC)
Agreed, it's definitely a bug. I just wouldn't be surprised to see it specifically implemented on Seekers later as a special feature. ;)
ZDee (talk) 22:06, April 16, 2013 (UTC)


ZDee thought I should ask you to visit Thread:16827#5, so you could update the Editing Guidelines a little.
Aximillio (talk) 11:19, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

With the way you say it, I feel as if I'm being implicated in a crime of sorts...
ZDee (talk) 11:33, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
* Sidebarsuspicionsmall.png Suspicion is increasing...
Aximillio (talk) 11:48, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
"Nag nag nag, you guys."

Jemann, you're the best administrator to hassle 'round here. The others are not as active. This is posted at the bottom of the Editing Guidelines page:

If you have any questions at all, please leave a message on the appropriate admin talk page.

* Contact Neonix, Droxlean or Jemann for content-related concerns.
* Contact MrSuarez for technical concerns.

LOL, lies.
ZDee (talk) 12:40, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
Neonix was very active when I arrived, but seems to have stopped playing. I guess I should edit that list.


How responsible are you two feeling?
Jemann (talk) 13:26, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
I've read most of Neonix's comments. She seems like a really nice gal, easy to chat and work with. It's a shame she's not around to bully like you. XD

Sure, you can slap my name down as a contact for content-related concerns. Maybe it doesn't have to be said, but your name should be listed with both content and technical concerns. I wish we had another highly active editor to shoulder technical duty. Alas, we must continue to target you.
ZDee (talk) 23:57, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
Indeed, it's been a while since I last played - real life got in the way, you all know how it is. Then a bunch of new content cropped up and I was completely out of the loop for a while. T__T That hardly makes me qualified to add new content, now does it?

I really am glad to see that the wiki is still continuing to grow despite my inactiveness (and continuously spamming my inbox with reports of 10k+ hits per day!), and I have people like you to thank for it. :) It's good to see that this little side project started way back in Dec 2010 has grown to be what it is.

I guess it's time to pass the torch now. Jemann, I grant you Bureaucrat powers. Use them well!
Neonix (talk) 01:53, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Nixie!

So, ZDee and Aximillio: want to be admins? You two are doing most of the edits these days anyway (plus: actual planning! discussion! ruling with iron fist democratic process!)
Jemann (talk) 02:14, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
Well, well, speak of the devil---developer of this fine place... :D

Hello, lovely lady. I tip my hat to you.

"Indeed, it's been a while since I last played - real life got in the way, you all know how it is."

Indeed, which is why I've mentioned to Jemann that I might abruptly disappear any time during the next couple months. If I left, I really wouldn't know when I'd return. School and work has a way of doing that to your hobbies. (I'm seriously considering an expensive internet plan for my cellphone so I can stay connected to FL, if not the wiki. It'd be agony to edit the wiki on a cellphone.)

"Then a bunch of new content cropped up and I was completely out of the loop for a while. T__T That hardly makes me qualified to add new content, now does it?"

You jest! I've edited PoSI content while my characters were still in their level 60's. Of course, those were minor edits. Anyway, waves of universal content have been released lately and will continue to be released. The major ones in the past few months have been "Literary Ambitions" in Veilgarden, "Feast of the Exceptional Rose 2013" and "The Underground Leagues of Knife-and-Candle". They're for veteran and new players alike, or even veteran players who feel like new ones. ;)

"I really am glad to see that the wiki is still continuing to grow despite my inactiveness (and continuously spamming my inbox with reports of 10k+ hits per day!)"

* spit-take* Seriously? How scary and exciting...!

Whoa, now that you've crowned Jemann as a Bureaucrat, this is when he makes his ultra reveal as an iron-fisted tyrant and enslaves the rest of us with collars made of templates.
ZDee (talk) 02:18, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

Jemann wrote:

Thanks Nixie!
So, ZDee and Aximillio: want to be admins? You two are doing most of the edits these days anyway (plus: actual planning! discussion! ruling with iron fist democratic process!)

Incredible. I didn't see your response till I posted my own, and we both came to the logical conclusion that you rule with a fist of iron. ...Or, wait, are you implying that Aximillio and I are the ones with the iron fists? It's hard to tell with the way you word it...

I think we've recently learned that my biggest foible is marking pages as candidates for deletion. :P I'll gladly accept the privileges of being an administrator (like undeleting pages!), but much less so the responsibilities (deleting wrong pages, whoopsies!). I would appreciate a two-person step plan for deleting pages. I'd rather Aximillio and I continue marking them while you check them over for deletion.
ZDee (talk) 02:30, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
Tremble! Jemann made me an administator:

"Congrats, and try not to destroy the place :)"

I now have extra power buttons to push when I'm feeling bored, bwahahaha!

This is an ideal time for self-reflection. Let's go back to my first day as an editor:

I didn't even know to click the bright green "Edit" button to enter the editing screen.

A few months later, I issued this confession of guilt:

(Varissaelle fixed my mistake so the conversation continues on her wall)

Moral of the story: anyone can fumble their way up the work ladder! ;)
ZDee (talk) 08:29, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
I guess I'll be able to experiment with tweak templates when they don't behave, then =P

Edit: Btw, do you also get rats sent from randomers with no notes attached or is that a problem I've managed to get on my own?
Aximillio (talk) 13:34, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
You and I, let's blow this place sky high when no one else is looking!

I don't see why that would be a problem. You could make hearty rat stews with a big bag of the furry critters. Or maybe it's a death threat? Like certain items delivered at the Feast of the Exceptional Rose, it's difficult to distinguish admiration from loathing. I always sign notes, so you shouldn't suspect me!
ZDee (talk) 13:49, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
According to, I'm not alone. Oh well, it's an echo for doing nothing.
Aximillio (talk) 14:55, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
Congratulations everyone!
Vae Victis (talk) 16:02, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

Hideous Black Bar of Doom[edit]

What is this? Am I the only one seeing this?

During the past few weeks, you've probably seen me say something along the lines of "ditched Stories template to remove fugly black bar" in the editing summaries.

3-4 weeks back, these black bars descended like a swarm of locusts on our field of Categories. I thought it would all resolve itself after a couple days, but it's been weeks and the issue remains.

Now I come to you bearing a sacrifice of...of...somethingsomething. Exterminate the swarm, please.
ZDee (talk) 06:05, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it happened after I changed the Stories template to allow for alternative categories. Something to do with new lines starting with a space being automatically turned into 'pre' sections (i.e. hideous black bars). I just rearranged it a bit and it seems to have fixed that page at least.
Jemann (talk) 06:57, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
So you're the cause of these shenanigans! Hmpf, I'm glad you finally cleaned up after yourself, mister. :P
ZDee (talk) 07:48, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
They look a lot better now =)
Aximillio (talk) 13:32, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

Why are people so interested in a tutorial for a prison breakout?[edit]

For the past six weeks or so, "Escape to Fallen London" has been the most viewed page. Roughly two months ago, it crept into the top 3 and now it's been #1 for ages. Our "Most visited" counter is reset every Sunday night (or is it every Monday morning?), so I know it's not simply herd mentality with curious people clicking on the #1 page repeatedly because they see it's #1 here.

I also find it difficult to believe that a significant amount of players are searching for the specific words "fallen london escape" so early in the game. The beginning of the game is a tutorial, so that lowers the chances of people going to a search engine for further help.

The best guess I have is that someone's written a popular post (blog, forum, who knows?) which includes the wikia "Escape to Fallen London" URL, and readers are flocking to the page from that post recommendation or reference. As a Bureaucrat, do you have the ability to track down the source of page hits? Sate my curiosity...

Does anyone know the heart of the matter?
ZDee (talk) 14:39, May 11, 2013 (UTC)

No idea. I can't find any way to get more information than is given on the Admin Dashboard. If there's a way to look at the traffic logs, I don't know it.
Jemann (talk) 01:26, May 12, 2013 (UTC)
I think the simplest answer is the correct one: People new to FL see that choosing a destination will determine their profession, rewards and attributes. They don't know yet that all of these things are meaningless and can be easily changed later on. They think that this choice will have deep effects on their character, so they visit this Wiki to find out which is the right choice. I know that's how I felt when I first saw that option.

Incidentally, this gives you a rough estimate of how popular FL is and how many new player it attracts.

Off topic: Since I'm here I'd like to ask Jemann to take over the calculation spreadsheet (i.e. copy it into your Google Drive and I'll close this one):

You're much better at this sort of thing :)
Vae Victis (talk) 09:13, May 12, 2013 (UTC)
It's reset now, so between and Sunday?
Aximillio (talk) 09:19, May 12, 2013 (UTC)
@Vae Victis: No can do, sorry - seriously busy at work for the next month at least, no time for wiki stuff. I hereby nominate you as keeper of the google doc :)
Jemann (talk) 10:12, May 12, 2013 (UTC)
@Vae Victis

"Incidentally, this gives you a rough estimate of how popular FL is and how many new player it attracts."

That's what I want to know. There's no way for me to see each page's total views, or maybe the option's cleverly hidden.


"It's reset now, so between and Sunday?"

Ah, so it's early Sunday for some and mid Sunday for others depending on their time zone.


"I hereby nominate you as keeper of the google doc :)"

I also nominate Vae Victis for I'm glad it's someone other than me.
ZDee (talk) 13:49, May 12, 2013 (UTC)
Very well, I shall soldier on.
Vae Victis (talk) 14:12, May 12, 2013 (UTC)

Our Dues[edit]

This is cut from a conversation I had with Aximillio:

"Also, does right work?"

Yes. |left and |right don't frame the image. |thumb frames the image and provides a link to its individual file page through the small paper-and-magnifying-lens icon. It has also the effect of telling you who uploaded the image.

I like to credit people properly, but I also think the uploader's name and miniature avatar in a |thumb frame are distracting. The reading experience here would be more immersive if we could remove the editor avatars; leaving their names should be enough. It's kinda odd that a thumbed image has that sort of credit system but nothing else does...? I mean, you don't see the names of people who contributed to a page unless you read its History.

If there's a way to display a page's latest revision info (editor name and date) between the Categories and Comments, it'd be great to use. It's not simply a matter of acknowledging others' contributions; at a glance, we'd be able to tell how long it's been since a page was touched. If 2-3 years have passed, the page would be worth a followup check in the game. It would help with maintenance, making sure everything's current and correct.

For example -

I read a page and see this note beneath the Categories section:

"This page was last edited by Neonix on March 3, 2011."

It'd remind me to test the page's contents in FL to see if it's still up-to-date. Or maybe if I naturally encountered the page's contents next time, I'd find the wiki page again to compare. It'd be a little alert note.
ZDee (talk) 03:15, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

If there's a way to style the images so the contributor info isn't showing, I'm fine with using it. I haven't really experimented much (as much as you guys seem to be doing).

I didn't see any configuration setting to add revision info to pages. What I did find was templates in use on some other wikis, notably a {{[[Template:Last_edited_by|Last edited by]]}} template. You should be able to add it to the bottom of other templates (haven't tested it), although it would still appear above the Category list (I think).
Jemann (talk) 03:55, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
"If there's a way to style the images so the contributor info isn't showing, I'm fine with using it."

I have a seriously shoddy experience with trawling Wikia's Help files, but I'll throw myself against its thorns once more. There's gotta be something...

"I haven't really experimented much (as much as you guys seem to be doing)."

You can't blame me for Aximillio's zealous habit of tweaking the Item template. XD

Thanks for pointing out the "Last edited by" template!

As you've guessed, the revision info appears above Categories. That's an okay place to situate it. Actually, it's way higher than that. It rather unfortunately launches itself above a page's category gallery and Subcategories links list. That is definitely not okay! I'll poke around the Help pages to see what can be done; I get the feeling clever coding could maneuver it around.
ZDee (talk) 04:22, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
Well, I guess you could remove the galleries? =P
Aximillio (talk) 11:31, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

On lock/unlock[edit]

Lock is only used when new factors come into play. If shadowy is an unlock it won't be a lock - instead it'll be listed as 78 to 98 or similar. Don't think we have any exceptions yet =)
Aximillio (talk) 15:47, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, that's how I would do it, but you can be kind of finicky :)
Jemann (talk) 16:21, June 5, 2013 (UTC)
I know =P
Aximillio (talk) 17:27, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

Bizarre Black Box[edit]


Do you see it, the image placeholder? It's a huge eyesore which came out of nowhere -- quite literally!

I added category "in the Labyrinth of Tigers, Navigating Coil" through use of the page's "Add category" button. I refreshed and the image placeholder box appeared! I didn't do anything else, but the page freaked.

I went on to check the page's Visual and Source code, and there was nothing amiss. I performed a rollback in the hope that it would clear the page's abnormal black box, but it wouldn't leave. I clicked its center "Add Image" button and it took me to the editing screen of our front page -- yeah, the main page -- in Source mode! I left, refreshed the original problem page, clicked "Add Image" again and, that time, I was led to the right editing screen...but, wtf, that placeholder box shouldn't be there at all!

Finally, I decided to edit the page again by re-adding the category to see if things would clear. They did not clear. Foggy forecast still in place.

Maybe by the time you read this, the issue will have gone and resolved itself. Regardless, what the crap happened? It's obviously Wikia weirdness, but it's never been this brand of odd before.
ZDee (talk) 11:32, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

I'm wondering why Template:Action has the placeholder image in the first line, when on the action articles we put the image outside of the template. So the template doesn't really need the placeholder, does it? What's extremely weird here is that the placeholder has been in the template forever but suddenly starts actually showing up just now. I guess someone with permission should try removing the placeholder from the template.
DrinkKryptonite (talk) 12:26, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
Fixed now
Aximillio (talk) 14:02, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
Found one in the Fate template as well (fixed), please tell if you find more.
Aximillio (talk) 14:09, June 26, 2013 (UTC)
What? Huh? Oh. Well done all.

Edit: There was one in Template:Connections - now removed.
Jemann (talk) 00:39, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

DrinkKryptonite wrote:

What's extremely weird here is that the placeholder has been in the template forever but suddenly starts actually showing up just now.

Er... Oh... Well... Excellent job tracking down the problem, DK! :D

Yeesh, so the "Wikia weirdness" was Wikia actually doing its coded job at long fricking last over two years later, oh my gosh, what the heck... :-/
ZDee (talk) 02:24, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
this problem has been fixed but wanted to point it out:

earlier, nothing was visible except the page's categories. the rest of the content was invisible or i don't know what, but it just wasn't there. i edited it in a minor way, published it, and everything went back to normal. most odd that it should happen in the first place.
ZDee (talk) 06:32, July 2, 2013 (UTC)
Ocassionally something goes wrong with wikia's pages. I've seen it on different wikis as well, so there's nothing other than updating it we can do.
Aximillio (talk) 17:56, July 2, 2013 (UTC) might be of interest. Essentially, you can add ?action=purge at the end of a URL to force a regeneration of the current page. (I wish I'd known about it when I was messing around with truncation).
Jemann (talk) 00:53, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
enlightening! i shall try the purge url trick the next time i encounter such an issue.

the {{Last edited by}} template you mentioned before has a purge link attached to the end of the "this was last edited by so-and-so" sentence. i will tamper with our popular templates to see if i can embed the {{Last edited by}} template and get it to situate itself under categories. (that is, after i get a new keyboard. this one is shagged.)
ZDee (talk) 03:37, July 3, 2013 (UTC)

Pssst, I think it's your turn to update the news feed.[edit]

Erm, about the Forgotten Quarter Expeditions. And ask people to help us fill in the Airs messages. Why don't you teach them how to check for their Airs level in your post? :D
ZDee (talk) 06:05, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

great work with the forgotten quarter post! it was quite informative and laid out well. :)

...but you do realize you now have to explain the restructured 60% broad system, the new broad challenge template, and the fact that all our broad challenges added before july 4th are outdated? (it was the 5th for you since you're in new zealand; the last broad bomb dropped on some other time zones and wikia on the 4th)

please. *sparkly puppy eyes* i can't even use capital letters without my wrist cramping, graaah. new keyboard comes next week.
ZDee (talk) 05:40, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
I live in the future! Not quite NZ, but close enough.

I just reworked that last calculator to actually use the new template and spit it out unformatted, so new users at least have something to copy. For the rest... I'm gonna wait and see how it pans out.
Jemann (talk) 06:20, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
mrrmh?! does this mean you suspect another broad drop? i think, or at least hope, that the 60% update will be the final one. or maybe you think FBG will go with a wide range of base %'s? (60% for one challenge, 70% for another, 50% for yet another, and so on?) the mind reels! ...but, sure, let's wait to see what occurs during the next week or two.
ZDee (talk) 06:32, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
the 'challenge list generator' calculator no longer spits out a source code-friendly version of the list. instead, there's a filled-out 'BroadChallenge' template...which prohibits the use of visual mode if you don't circumvent it by using the 'action' template. kinda confusing!
ZDee (talk) 17:51, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

"Well I didn't get any Cryptic Clues..."[edit]

Er. Oh. Sowwy. "A strange sort of prank", indeed.

Why don't you send the same invitation to one of my alts? I'd like to confirm the reward -- or lack thereof -- on my end, as well.
ZDee (talk) 23:55, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

Will do. Make sure you take note of your Cryptic Clue tally before and after - the resulting message doesn't mention anything, but possibly you do still gain them.
Jemann (talk) 00:04, July 2, 2013 (UTC)
Before accepting, I'll open the "Myself" inventory page in another browser window. Then I'll accept and compare the new inventory page with the older one from the second window. This is how I normally track the vague social action rewards these days.
ZDee (talk) 00:46, July 2, 2013 (UTC)
The receiver isn't informed about the Cryptic Clue gain, but they do get them.
Delmar Tramontane (talk) 02:22, July 2, 2013 (UTC)
Going to the theatre: Maniac's Prayers confirmed. Nightmares appears to gain 1 CP; Icarus was already at level 13, so hard to tell.

A singular phrase: got 1 x Extraordinary Implication rather than Whispered Secrets (documented it). Falling Cities still at level 15...

Sharing a dream: correct (went up a level of Gates of the Garden).

There may be other changes taking place, but I am not painstaking enough to compare every item and quality :)
Jemann (talk) 03:49, July 2, 2013 (UTC)
My rewards matched up, too. :) I still need you or Delmar to invite me for "A strange sort of prank" to double check it.

EDIT: I didn't receive any narrative text when you accepted, just the reward notifications of items.
ZDee (talk) 04:00, July 2, 2013 (UTC)
tested "A strange sort of prank"! as the recipient i got the narrative text after accepting but no notification of an item reward. the 200 cryptic clues crept into my inventory silently.

these are nifty rewards. i'll stick to using the prank and "A singular phrase" when i get the chance.
ZDee (talk) 08:59, July 2, 2013 (UTC)

"Another way to start the search?"[edit]

I'd guess yes. With a Broad challenge of 250, I suppose you'll want to fail (to avoid the search). "Success" is relative. I wonder if you can get any unique items out of the option... Like an aquatic parasite lunging at your head, which you then keep as a pet! Or a knife...or even a candle...

By the way, updating the Item template, Y/N?
ZDee (talk) 01:05, July 10, 2013 (UTC)

Success doesn't start the search for the Name, I know that. Nothing unique either. Not sure what success actually does beyond that, however.
Delmar Tramontane (talk) 02:01, July 10, 2013 (UTC)
Oh, well, that's actually quite a relief. I wouldn't want to inadvertently begin the Search while feeling my way through the cave. (...Which is a really dumb sentence when taken out of context.)
ZDee (talk) 02:04, July 10, 2013 (UTC)
Yes, it'd be rather unfortunate to accidentally stumble into the search. The lack of warning makes me think that failure will, at worst, raise Unaccountably Peckish. All the other ways offer an explicit warning, so it wouldn't be fair for this to lack one.
Delmar Tramontane (talk) 02:08, July 10, 2013 (UTC)
Quite right! A big ole toxic warning sign is always there to give you pause.

It's probably rises to Unaccountably Peckish and Nightmares. Possibly some points to Icarus Eyes.
ZDee (talk) 02:14, July 10, 2013 (UTC)

What is the name of the Nadir area?[edit]

1) Cave of the Nadir

2) The Cave of the Nadir

I went with #2, but I haven't personally visited it, so I'm double checking. You've been using #1 as the category name for the area. I moved those links to the new "The Cave of the Nadir" category page. I can easily move them back if it turns out the full name is #1.

More importantly, what should we do about the "Route: the Cave of the Nadir"? It's the only Route to have its own article page...which isn't very surprising since it's being treated as a commodity these days:

Sell the location of the Cave of the Nadir

So "Route: the Cave of the Nadir" should also gets its own item page complete with Uses and Sources categories, yes? Such a thing is absolutely unnecessary for the other Routes because you never lose or trade them once you learn them, but the Nadir is a special exception.

EDIT: On second thought, should we also make item pages for the other Routes? "The Shuttered Palace" category could be used for actions taking place in the specified area, but category "Route: The Shuttered Palace" could be used solely to indicate when you need it as an Unlock for certain options.
ZDee (talk) 11:17, July 10, 2013 (UTC)

The location is just Cave of the Nadir (as in 'Welcome to Cave of the Nadir, delicious friend!').

This Route is a little different than other routes - there's now a storylet in the Forgotten Quarter letting me go there (well, once my Irrigo dies down) - but it doesn't appear on the map. So while it's in the Route category, it behaves more like other story categories. You could do as you would for those (same category tag for unlock and gain), or make into an item.
Jemann (talk) 12:21, July 10, 2013 (UTC)
Welcome to Cave of the Nadir, delicious friend!

Time for some rollbacks! XD I'll do it.

"So while it's in the Route category, it behaves more like other story categories. You could do as you would for those (same category tag for unlock and gain), or make into an item."

A story 'Quality' category would be better.

EDIT: Done! Rollbacked and qualitied!
ZDee (talk) 12:38, July 10, 2013 (UTC)

Did you receive and read Wikia's monthly admin email?[edit]

It was sent on July 9th and written by Sarah Morales.

A few points of interest:

"On to this month's topic: Mobile. As I'm sure you're aware, mobile access is exploding around the globe and Wikia is no exception. Right now, 25% of the pageviews across our network are coming from mobile devices (smart phones and tablets) and that number keeps on growing.

"Because our world is growing more and more connected via smart phones and tablets, we think keeping the mobile experience in mind when designing your articles and layout is very important. A common smartphone screen size is 320 x 480 pixels, so what appears at the top of a page is the first place you should focus your attention. This will be what the viewer sees first, and will set the impression of your community.

"We recommend you check your wiki from a mobile device regularly. If you don't have easy access to a smartphone with a browser, you can get a sense of what the mobile experience will look like on your wiki by adding ?useskin=wikiamobile to the end of the wiki's URL."

There are many players (or at least that's the impression I get from reading the official FBG forum) who play FL on their cellphones, tablets or laptops. I'd appreciate knowing if a substantial number of readers here also view the wiki through a mobile app, platform or whatnot. (There's a Apple app available and Wikia is working on an Android app.)

I've used the wikiamobile skin to view some pages (particularly the ones with fancier code like tables)...and they don't...look...good. For anyone viewing this wiki on a tablet or laptop, I can only hope they ignore the mobile Wikia modes. We didn't design or code for tiny screens and definitely not for Wikia's mobile apps.

If there's indeed a large number of mobile app readers, then let's take them into more consideration when we code. When I made the Unpredictable Treasures table, I checked to see if it looked decent in mobile mode before I published it. Some of our tables look shoddy in mobile mode. It saddens me, but we can't all lug around 24" screens wherever we go.

Wikia is also developing a "mobile Preview" for the editor screen, so that should simplify matters.

I'm considering a news feed post to notify editors (complete copy of the mobile email by Sarah Morales) and to gather opinions. Perhaps it's unnecessary. What do you think?

Maybe we should first erect a poll on the front page about it? "Are you reading this wiki through a Wikia mobile app or a general mobile mode?" Yes/No/I would if you made mobile mode more appealing.

I experimented with a new wiki layout earlier. I feel ambivalent:
ZDee (talk) 21:30, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you![edit]

I'll do my best.
Vae Victis (talk) 22:00, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

"Heh - just got this as an automatic storylet in the Forgotten Quarter."[edit]

Hell yeah, dude, I was waiting for this! :D

Apostate-princeling, eh? Interesting, a royal traitor to his own throne.

I can infer the cause for the Grand Hunt...but I'm unsure of how to explain it to people in the Unlocked section without giving away Fate-locked content of sorts. Maybe I should just put in "Being a daft Seeker (I mean, more so than the usual level of daftness unique to Seekers)".
ZDee (talk) 01:33, October 24, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure whether this is seasonally connected, or whether a bit of Fate-spending had unexpected consequences (I just sold a soul that had been unsellable for some time). I didn't stick around to ask the devils what the problem was, exactly.
Jemann (talk) 01:43, October 24, 2013 (UTC)
I read the failure result elsewhere, so I'm certain it's because of that. Basically, you sold the devils shoddy goods. They demand compensation and a return of merchandise. Basic market logic a.k.a. you nutty bastard, you tricked the devils into accepting a stained soul. A reckoning shall not be postponed, haha.

Oh, I wish I had a stained soul so I could enjoy this dee-lightful fare. Maybe next year.
ZDee (talk) 01:49, October 24, 2013 (UTC)
I have heard DREADFUL things about a failure, including losing all of your echoes and soul-related items. It can happen even if you're merely soulless from your search. You HAVE to be in the Forgotten Quarter for it to show up. Also it is possibly seasonal?
MidnightVoyager (talk) 01:55, October 24, 2013 (UTC)
Hoho, I KNOW of these dreadful things. I kinda...feel...left out. Missing out on my fantasy of failure, heh. There's no way I'll get chained, scarred and stained in time.

I'm not sure if this special storylet will disappear for those with the requirements even after Halloween ends. Maybe the soulless Seekers shall have to contend with the Grand Hunt each time they enter the Forgotten Quarter till the matter is resolved. Forcibly. Back into their bodies.
ZDee (talk) 02:01, October 24, 2013 (UTC)
Sadly, we may need to delete this particular storylet. I can't see how one could make this particular situation arise without spending Fate, as I did (although I would love to be proved wrong).
Jemann (talk) 13:37, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Jemann wrote:

Sadly, we may need to delete this particular storylet. I can't see how one could make this particular situation arise without spending Fate, as I did (although I would love to be proved wrong).

If your soul is stained and you lack your soul in any way whatsoever, this will happen. Even if you lose it in the normal course of Seeking.
MidnightVoyager (talk) 13:40, October 26, 2013 (UTC)
[*headdesk*] Right, of course. But if I you lose your soul via Cat, you also automatically get the Looking for your Soul story. I wonder if that would lock you out of this story?

In lieu of working out the mechanics, it would be helpful to know if someone had actually encountered this story without spending the connected Fate.
Jemann (talk) 22:54, October 26, 2013 (UTC)
I know someone sent an extremely baffled and frustrated ask on my tumblr about running into the Grand Hunt after losing their soul to the Starveling Cat, so it's almost certainly possible.
Spacemarine9 (talk) 23:46, October 26, 2013 (UTC)
That's good enough for me!
Jemann (talk) 23:52, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Failures are acting up[edit]

Or "down", way down:

Speak to the Dean of Neocartography

The outcomes are pushed quadruple spaces below the description. Er, why? I tinkered a bit with the Failure template to see if it would resolve itself, but it still looks the same.

In Trade glim for maps with the Salty Fabulist, the Rare Success looks all right but the Failure is chasing away the reward outcomes. The RS and F templates have the same code, though (or maybe I missed something minor), so what the hey?
ZDee (talk) 05:17, October 26, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, right now I can't work out what the hell is going wrong. I'm more concerned about functionality first, but hopefully we'll work it out soon.
Jemann (talk) 07:20, October 26, 2013 (UTC)
Maybe it's connected to empty IFs?

At any rate, I've updated Autofires, Cards and Storylets. Also I've updated the Description part in the Action template. Jemann did the rest. Surprisingly cards and storylet descriptions are responsible only for about fifty or so items in Immediate Review. Sadly, it still leaves us with 3k+ other items.
Vae Victis (talk) 09:43, October 26, 2013 (UTC)
Son of a..! Now the success descriptions in the Action template are misbehaving?!! x_x

Even though the code is fine, all of a sudden, the truncation code is broken; excessive characters are no longer shortened upon display (or is it just for me?). I don't even -- what is this -- I -- guh, I give up! When Wikia bugs something awful, it's usually best to just wait for it to fix itself, so that's what I'm gonna do because I simply don't have time for its shenanigans. I mean, it's not as if our code is wrong. ...Or, wait, is it? Probably not us; things have been working for months. This is horrible timing on the system's part to be a snot.
ZDee (talk) 17:09, October 31, 2013 (UTC)
I think it might be the code because Failures and Autofires behave normally.

If things don't go back in a day or so I'll just copy the code from any other template.
Vae Victis (talk) 19:11, October 31, 2013 (UTC)
Jemann made the last revision:

Perhaps it's not fully tidied?
ZDee (talk) 19:14, October 31, 2013 (UTC)
But it shouldn't affect the truncation in any way. At worst the "Incomplite" template should be acting up, not the truncation code which didn't change. I thought that Jemann's accidentally allowed for the description to be shown twice - once with truncation and once without it, but that isn't what's happening either.

For now let's keep an eye open for the other templates as well. It still could be a Wikia problem.
Vae Victis (talk) 19:19, October 31, 2013 (UTC)
Quite possibly. Half of the pages have been affected due to the recent overhaul in template code, so anomalies aren't entirely unexpected. I'll wait patiently to see if the Wikia-inflicted problems magically fix themselves days later like they so often do. :-/
ZDee (talk) 19:24, October 31, 2013 (UTC)
I'm wondering if it's due to line shifts between Ifs? Because the line shift would be made either way, Whether If is yes or no?
Aximillio (talk) 20:55, October 31, 2013 (UTC)
Is there a particular page it's screwing up on? I took a random page (A bottle of the '68) and ran a purge and it still behaved correctly.

My last revision on Action was to fix an bug ZDee introduced - if there was a success summary without a success description it wouldn't be printed. The current logic in the template goes something like:

if there's a success description {<br>  include truncated success description<br>  if there's also a summary {<br>    include summary<br>  }<br>  include 'find the rest of the story', character counts<br>}<br>else if there's a summary {<br>  include summary<br>}

which is messy but should work.

I think the problem with extra space in the templates are the ifs that don't pass, leaving an extra line. (Why the problem should be so much worse in Failure I can't fathom.)

Y'know, I just realised that all the places with 'quoted description plus summary' logic could pass to a secondary template in the same way that BroadChallenge is used now. Which means that nailing it in one place will make it work properly everywhere... maybe.
Jemann (talk) 23:47, October 31, 2013 (UTC)
After I purge it, A bottle of the '68 still fully displays the 356 character success description. I see the complete paragraph:

Two bruisers bar your way, but grunt appreciatively as you show the label on your bottle. You pass through to the party proper. Few of the partygoers are what they seem. Flashes of fine silk or velvet under the rags; a scent of Eau de Champignon. Isn't that really Lady ——? And the Magistrate? Wine flows, words flow, and you learn many interesting things.

I used the character counter here:

Some pages act even odder. The quote in 'What...? Do I understand you correctly?' is 648 characters long, but I can see 448 characters in the article. It's partially truncated:

'...a direct delivery from the Empress. The Idol has long been one of the Consort's breakfast favourites. They simply can't trust the Palace polisher. And I have extensive contacts in the polishing world. Were you aware that the Assyrians used honey to...

An underling takes him aside for a brief word. You take the opportunity to slip one of the papers into your sleeve for later investigation. You are permitted to leave without further incident.

Another example is A donation to Saint Cyriac's Illuminated College. It's 534 characters, but the article page shows 300 characters:

The Querulous Theologian accepts the candles with a smile, and invites you into the heavily carpeted halls of the College. She offers you fiercely strong coffee. You can hear an argument upstairs. It sounds as if two scriptural revisionists are coming...

[Head to the Bazaar Sidestreets to continue.]

Finally, there are pages like Tell the Inspector which work completely fine. Its description is 671 characters, but it's cut off properly at 250.

"My last revision on Action was to fix an bug ZDee introduced - if there was a success summary without a success description it wouldn't be printed."

Oh yeah, that's my fault; I see it -- my sincere apologies! :( Got the IF field confused for something else when I was tinkering to move the Summary below the Description. Thanks for correcting that.

Grrr, hold on, I'm going to rollback the Action template to your penultimate revision to see if that helps. Then I'll very carefully move the Summary parameter beneath the Description parameter and touch nothing else. >_>

EDIT: Never mind, we can't rollback two editors, just one. I'll republish the code and hope the "refresh" fixes something.

EDIT2: Hey, it worked! :D The Success descriptions are properly truncated again. There's, uh, extra line space from the blank Summary parameter...but it doesn't look as bad as the current Failure.

"I think the problem with extra space in the templates are the ifs that don't pass, leaving an extra line. (Why the problem should be so much worse in Failure I can't fathom.)"

Exactly why we're confused. Plenty of our templates do that but never to such an elongated extreme. It even shares the same relevant code as Success and Rare Success, but those templates don't misbehave. Maybe it could all be rectified with a secondary template like you suggested.
ZDee (talk) 08:29, November 1, 2013 (UTC)
I changed the Success template in hopes of simplifying it. It looked to me that having it all in one big If is problematic, so I've broken it into several unrelated expressions:

If (there is a success description) truncate it and add the FL notice. Otherwise nothing. If (success description) is longer than 250 chars, add the char counter and mark it for Immediate review. Otherwise nothing. If (there is a summary) put it after "Player summary". Otherwise nothing. If (either the success description and the summary are not empty) do nothing. Otherwise add incomplete.

The only problem I foresee is some line-breaks acting up, but if all else works this could be changed later. If this works well I'll need to do it to all the other templates as well. But for now keep your eyes open for possible bugs.

Jemann: Y'know, I just realised that all the places with 'quoted description plus summary' logic could pass to a secondary template in the same way that BroadChallenge is used now. Which means that nailing it in one place will make it work properly everywhere... maybe.

Isn't the fact that we use different names for the successes and summaries in different templates (aka "failure summary", success summary", just "summary") makes this impossible?
Vae Victis (talk) 13:20, November 1, 2013 (UTC)
The trick is that a template can call other templates and pass along its own arguments. So to use the QuoteSummary template I just created, it can be called with

{{QuoteSummary | Quote={{{Success description}}} | Summary={{{Success summary}}} }}

I've put up the various permutations of using it at User:Jemann/Testing Templates. I think I've dealt with all the bugs... maybe I'll try putting one of our standard reward icons after each usage to see if that throws it.

EDIT: Also, I'm never sure what to do when new or anonymous users start inserting or removing extra lines from existing pages. Undo the changes with a 'please stop now' comment?
Jemann (talk) 00:09, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
That looks brilliant! I've put it into Template:TestAction and it has integrated wonderfully!

"Also, I'm never sure what to do when new or anonymous users start inserting or removing extra lines from existing pages. Undo the changes with a 'please stop now' comment?"

If that bothers you, sure. I never saw much of a difference in how the end result looks and figured people did that because on their browser our articles look a bit off. It's just too subtle to be vandalism.
Vae Victis (talk) 08:07, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
It might be better with a comment on their talk page, as new editors might not check edit summaries. Leaving a comment on their talk page would give them a notification (hopefully).
Aximillio (talk) 19:37, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

I tried putting the QuoteSummary template into the Autofire template, but for some reason if there is no player summary it shows on the articles:

Player summary:

{{{Decription summary}}}

I made sure that the argument's was correct, but it still did that. Very strange.
Vae Victis (talk) 15:13, November 8, 2013 (UTC)
I saw something similar when I attempted to put it into Social Actions. If you call it like so:

{{QuoteSummary | Quote={{{Arg1|}}} | Summary={{{Arg2|}}} }}

it seems to get around the problem. (This means, pass either the argument or an empty string if it's empty/missing).

Note that when I searched for how to call templates from other templates, I found the advice that 'templates should avoid calling other templates (unless absolutely necessary)'.

Re: adding it Social Actions, the problem there is that the reward list is included as part of each description, meaning it gets factored into the character count and truncation.
Jemann (talk) 23:11, November 8, 2013 (UTC)
Just finished redirecting templates to QuoteSummary. I think I got all the important ones.

Note that when I searched for how to call templates from other templates, I found the advice that 'templates should avoid calling other templates (unless absolutely necessary)'.

Oh Wikia, we love you so. Funny thing is the categories were designed specifically to call other categories (the sub-category groups), so why would the templates act differently?
Vae Victis (talk) 10:18, November 12, 2013 (UTC)
Failures are not acting up! Huzzah!
Jemann (talk) 23:04, November 12, 2013 (UTC)
Oh, joyous day! The quotes no longer look like they're creeping away from the rewards. Thanks a lot! :D
ZDee (talk) 23:46, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

A Matter of Trust[edit]

You have received a letter from Esterhazy (Esterhazy in Fallen London). "No no no, it is _me_ that has to trust _you_. And the other 13 people I've confessed to. Who _are_ all these people?"

Heheh, caught me, have you? Well, you haven't sent me any requests for confessions; you can't earn my Trust. Not as a story quality, anyway. :P

I also find myself frequently asking "WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE, AND WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON MY QUALITIES LAWN?"!

Why aren't you sending me requests, anyway? Are you not in a festive mood for betrayal roulette?
ZDee (talk) 04:16, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

I am spending all my time increasing Menaces so that I can confess to random strangers. It's a full-time occupation, apparently. That and trying to find a way to get my soul back that doesn't involve Fate or angry devils. In that respect, suffering a big hit to Watchful might actually help.
Jemann (talk) 04:30, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
All day, everyday, I commit crime, cleanse myself, rinse and repeat. I will be relieved when confessions go out of style. I don't mind if people send me requests; though I do feel a teensy bit guilty when I can't accept their invitations right away because I'm sapped from earlier confessions.

Buy your Bottled Oblivion in bulk. Have a ball!
ZDee (talk) 05:09, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
Re-ensouled at last! Holding on to my Cantigaster Venom with impunity, heh heh heh. Now to regain those 20-odd levels...
Jemann (talk) 04:17, November 19, 2013 (UTC)
You really did it with the Bottled Oblivion, haha? Or maybe the Ridiculous Hats? Which, by the way, have no rare success. Spacemarine9 told me he wasted 500 fine hats on its nonexistence. Anyway, congratulations! :D
ZDee (talk) 04:39, November 19, 2013 (UTC)

Influence and its doppelganger[edit]

Uh-oh, the new "Influence" attribute given by Acquainted With shares the same moniker as the item category "Influence"!

What to doooo? One should be kept simply as "Influence" while the other gets a short but self-explanatory description in parentheses.

In a rush, I made "Influence (Sidebar Attribute)" earlier today, but it'd probably be easier for the editors if the item category name was "Influence (Items)" and the sidebar quality was "Influence".
ZDee (talk) 00:37, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, the item category is the easier one to change, since it's only used on the Items belonging to that category.

Wonder if Trust/Confessions was the test case for this system? Alexis is cunning.
Jemann (talk) 00:58, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
All righty, I'll update all the necessary "Influence" links.

The seasonal events are an excellent way to gather player research statistics and test new mechanics. People climb all over each other to taste new content, no matter what harm or delights said content may bring. Hah. XD
ZDee (talk) 01:47, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

Stats have level names now?[edit]


* 100 - Inescapable

(+12 gear)

* 180 - A Focused Brilliance

(wearing +10 Watchful gear)


* 63 - Crafty

(+32 gear)

* 179 - Shrouded in Shadows

(+19 Shadowy gear)


* 65 - Perilous

(+18 gear)

* 147 - Terrifying

(+15 gear)


* 61 - Captivating

(-4 gear)

* 176 - A Mesmerising Presence

(+28 gear)

I'm not sure if those are the descriptors for base/unmodified stats or if they take into account the total through equipment.
ZDee (talk) 22:39, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

Descriptions are for base levels, i Ithink. 

180 dangerous - A terrible power

Persuasive 187 is same.
Aximillio (talk) 23:16, December 12, 2013 (UTC)
Probably base levels. We should add these level names at the bottom of the attribute pages.
ZDee (talk) 23:22, December 12, 2013 (UTC)
OK, hovering over the attributes in the sidebar gives you base levels. But at the top of the 'Myself' tab, and on your dedicated Profile page, you get all four adjectives including modifiers (e.g. a midnight, sinister, inescapable and sagacious gentleman). If you change gear, you'll need to refresh these pages to get any modified descriptions.

e.g. Persuasive 158 +19; hover over description is 'A Mesmerising Presence', description at top is 'magnificent'.

Wait, dammit, for Persuasive 158 +1 I'm still getting 'magnificent'. Let's look at attributes with simpler descriptions

Watchful 145 -2 - 'Inescapable' on mouseover text, 'Inescapable'. We have a match.

So the mouseover description may differ from the usual adjectives; the adjectives are easier to collect (by changing equipment), edit: although working out which adjective matches which attribute is another problem.

Agree, we should add these to the attribute pages.

Overall I'm loving the makeover.
Jemann (talk) 00:03, December 13, 2013 (UTC)
Oh, this explains a lot. I was writing down those adjectives for some time and equipment was important. I'm confuse now, about my old findings, because I was almost sure that firts levels were 11-15, 16-20,  21-?. Well, in that case, I will only post new informations.

Maybe I will put here all informations, about mouseover decription, we have so far. Without messing with attribute pages.


27 - 34 Observant

60 - Insightful

85 - Sagacious

107 - 145 Inescapable

180 - A Focused Brilliance


11 - Sly

22 - Devious

65 - Sinister

74 - Crafty

155 - Midnight

166 - 179 Shrouded in Shadows


9 - 10 Menacing

15 - 16 Formidable

65 - 74 Perilous

99 - Lethal

106 - Terrifying

168 - 180 A Terrible Power


34 - 38 Intriguing

61 - 77 Captivating

140 - Irrestible

150 - 184 A Mesmerising Presence

200 Legendary
Varissaelle (talk) 00:25, December 13, 2013 (UTC)
200 Persausive is still magnificent, but the hover text is "Legendary" 00:35, December 13, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for gathering all those monikers!

Another change: the expanded inventory's "Spouse" section has returned to its older title "Constant Companion". I do prefer CC over Spouse, but I'm not sure if it's intended. Should we wait a week or so to update the wiki?

EDIT: The standard inventory's "Pets" section is now named the "Companion" section, the previous title. Huh, I'm gonna bug report these.
ZDee (talk) 03:58, December 13, 2013 (UTC)
Some counter-examples: I've had inescapable and sagacious at the same time; plus midnight and sinister at another time. Midnight definitely belongs to Shadowy (at 101+). It's enough to make me doubt my sanity.
Jemann (talk) 04:10, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

Your two highest stats (with gear) are always chosen for your profile titles. The titles shown are the quality level descriptions, up until the 100 level; if a stat shown in your titles is at 100 or above, you'll see the 100-149 and the 80-99 title in sequence for it -- otherwise you'll just see the current title.

The title functionality was never updated for the 150+ descriptors. The net result of this is that there A LOT of irresistible, magnificent, inescapable, sagacious, terrifying, lethal, midnight and sinister individuals wandering around London.

The OP's highest stats, given the titles they provided, are Persuasive and Watchful, in that order. 
Arvedui (talk) 13:05, February 14, 2017 (UTC)

Broad Challenge - revised[edit]

So I coded up an alternative generator for Broad Challenges at Template:BroadChallengeRevisedTest. Rather than just find the first level that exceeds a probability, it then works out the actual probability for that level. Better illustrated by example.

Old list: Broad, Dangerous 11

* 10 - very chancy (50%)
* 11 - chancy (60%)
* 13 - modest (70%)
* 15 - very modest (80%)
* 17 - low-risk (90%)
* 19 - straightforward (100%)

New list: Broad, Dangerous 11

* 10 - chancy (54%)
* 11 - chancy (60%)
* 13 - modest (70%)
* 15 - low-risk (81%)
* 17 - straightforward (92%)
* 19 - straightforward (100%)

It's more accurate than the old version for difficulty levels < 60. The downside is that some probability descriptors will get repeated (e.g. chancy and straightforward in the above). Also it's more complicated, relying on a whole sequence of templates calling each other (although still less fragile than the truncation stuff). So... should I substitute it in?
Jemann (talk) 02:13, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Accuracy is generally best. I suppose it'll look a bit offbeat in contrast to the standard escalating 10%'s, but maybe the readers would appreciate it better?

"Because because because! (If you don't want it, feel free to un-bureaucrat yourself)."

Oh, thank you. More incentive to work in the archival mines here. ;)

ZDee (talk) 04:27, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
I prefer the old 10% jump system. It looks more orderly that way and people are aware that the calculator is off by a few points anyway.
Vae Victis (talk) 16:56, February 24, 2014 (UTC)
Well, someone recently wasn't aware and adjusted a difficulty level from 10 to 9.5, for the sake of accuracy. But I will keep it in reserve for now.
Jemann (talk) 23:44, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

Social actions[edit]

I'm trying to simplify the social actions. I don't play K&C so I've run into a problem of how to update those action. You can visit the thread at Aximillio's wall, where I link to my the templates.

Any input would be much appreciated!
Vae Victis (talk) 17:00, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

Game Instructions:[edit]

I recently edited A word with the Bishop of St Fiacre's. Was I right in putting the text in the "Game Instructions" part of the article?

If so, I guess I need to go back to my other edits. I might have put some instructions at "Description Summary" or "Success Summary" instead.
Pyrodinium (talk) 03:46, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Game Instructions is better than Summary for this. Summaries are the right place for user-written content. These instructions are a bit of grey area regardless - we don't trim them because they tend to be rather mechanical (and dry)... but they are still FBG content.

Oh, hang on, I see that those instructions were at the end of the success results, not the description. In that case, putting them verbatim in the success summary is standard practice, but dodgy; rewriting them for the summary might be better. Optionally, you could just omit them - wiki users can (hopefully) do some poking around to find out that this is the end of the storyline.
Jemann (talk) 04:02, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I guess I'll just do a summary for now since it's a rather workable compromise between FBG's and the reader's needs. 
Pyrodinium (talk) 04:52, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Pictures in items[edit]


how do I get a picture alligned properly in a list? I edited the "An evening with a Regal Actress" page while I discovered it also had effect on Austere and Hedonist. I tried adding the pictures but I could not get them alligned properly so in the end I left them out for now. I did find the pictures to use, just could not get them like the other pics.


Erubyr (talk) 12:59, April 8, 2014 (UTC)


Found it, I just had to edit the page in Wikiscript instead of the editor.

Erubyr (talk) 09:53, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
Sorry for not getting back to you. Yep, there's no way of just doing a simple 'image here' in the visual editor. You can always insert the right image from the visual editor and then edit the wikitext; or just start typing [[File:blah... in wikitext and wait for the autocomplete to kick in.
Jemann (talk) 00:29, April 10, 2014 (UTC)


As you might have seen, I've tried to update the quirk pages and quirk gain pages (Only Austere so far) to reflect the new quirk changes.

Should it be done differently? Does it clutter up the pages too much? What d'you think?
Aximillio (talk) 23:31, October 27, 2014 (UTC)

As an aside, is it only me or does the quirks kind of tier that way already? The long storylet chains also seem to increase by more or less set amounts based on the levels.

Old level up to 6 (1 CP) -> New level 1-5

Old level up to 9 (~2 CP) -> Up to 10?

Old level up to 11 (3 CP) -> Up to 10?

Old up to 16 (5 CP) -> Up to 15?
Aximillio (talk) 23:35, October 27, 2014 (UTC)
I think drawing that info together is good; the long list of actions is a little hard to parse as a paragraph though. Maybe they should be in lists? Would be nice if there was a way to flow lists into more than column...

These pages might also be a good place to track the pages that still need checking/updating.

Yeah, there's almost certainly a consistent pattern to the tiers/CPs, as with dream qualities.
Jemann (talk) 23:54, October 27, 2014 (UTC)
Seconded. It's a good idea.

OT: Since everyone is here, what should the (eminently) upcoming Halloween content. Stick (2014) on all new pages as usual and retire actions from previous years or something else?

One new trick that I saw is a tabview (one page - different tabs for different years), but editing it might be a nightmare.
Vae Victis (talk) 00:22, October 28, 2014 (UTC)
Those lists for the quirks are definitely a good idea. It may also be useful to separate out the actions under each cap once again, by their tradeoff ("-Daring", etc.).

It's all sadly labour-intensive, though - both setting up such lists and keeping them current. I keep wishing there was an automatic way to sort categories as we want. Doesn't wikia have an option to override alphabetic sorting? Could that be somehow worked into the templates? Then we could have the quirk categories sort themselves, by cap...

Tabs are cool! These ones look like a lot of trouble to set up for every action page, though... The action names change year-to-year, too, sometimes trivially, so the result might be a bit messy. But I think they'd look very good on a central Hallowmas page - something like the one for the Feast of the Rose. If we present all the main links and pictures for each year's cards/storylets/qualities/items on the subpages, flicking between the tabs would be like seeing a tableaux of how FL has changed over the years. Well, some of it. I'd be curious! :-)
Indigofera (talk) 14:04, October 29, 2014 (UTC)
We can use tabs on the hallowmas page, as well as on other event pages. If we want to make tabs on the other pages as well, we'll eventually also have to integrate the old years. That would hopefully solve the problem with anonymous editors editing in info on old pages as well (hopefully)? The only con with this is really that it would take some time to edit it...

For Celebrate the Feast of the Exceptional Rose! 2013, we only need to add the tab code to Celebrate the Feast of the Exceptional Rose! and rename the 2013 page to Celebrate the Feast of the Exceptional Rose!/2013. I think that would be worth it, as it would look quite a bit more organised. (there's still that time perspective, though).

As for quirks, the lists will grow quite long, especially for 'gain' pages. If we can sort the categories manually by a number and remove the category gallery (which is very easy), they'll be just below the article, sorted with numbers only. Unknown options could perhaps be sorted as '?'. I personally think people should visit the individual pages to see losses in other quirks, because adding that sounds like a lot of work...
Aximillio (talk) 17:08, October 29, 2014 (UTC)
Let's start with Halloween. I've created a Hallowmas category. It's tabs are Hallowmas/2013 and Hallowmas/2014. There is little difference practically from the previous system, but it's easier now to access the actions from a previous year. Is it OK with you?

I'm not certain about adding tabs to pages that are being edited often because a tabview page can only be edited in source mode. Considering our Action template is packed full of variables, this might discourage people from editing.

On the other hand, retired pages and categories are practically made for this. In categories the difference is non-existent: instead of placing a space before a year, now we will be placing a slash.
Vae Victis (talk) 23:10, October 30, 2014 (UTC)
That's a consensus on tabs in categories, so far; just waiting for Jemann :-) Let's use Category:Hallowmas/2014 for now.
Indigofera (talk) 00:24, October 31, 2014 (UTC)
Go ahead; anything that helps untangle the seasonal messes we go through is desirable.
Jemann (talk) 00:57, October 31, 2014 (UTC)
Is there some reason we retire each year's content? Attract a Visitor at Hallowmas looks to have exactly the same text as last time, and almost the same effects. Could we not just tag it with both /2013 and /2014?

I did... something with Hallowmas/2013. A draft, not set in stone.:-)
Indigofera (talk) 11:26, October 31, 2014 (UTC)
Some of the content is the same and some isn't, but people will still edit old pages writing over previous content. So it's better to retire all old content even when it's the same just to keep people from messing with pages that should be preserved.

Edit: but in the case of Attract a Visitor at Hallowmas and The Gates of Midnight I guess it's OK for now. At least until any new content is revealed.

Edit: On second thought, not even Attract a Visitor at Hallowmas. The requirements for the actions have changed so I better make it a tabview page.

P.S. Thanks for the re-categorizing!
Vae Victis (talk) 14:54, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

Holiday events and retiring[edit]

We had a discussion on this subject over at Category talk:Retired. If you have time it'd be nice if you could voice your opinion. (As well as other people's)
Aximillio (talk) 21:06, December 31, 2014 (UTC)

My bad![edit]

Hey; I was the one who did a poor job of trimming "Lady in Lilac". Thanks for fixing it, and sorry for rendering it temporarily unseemly... 01:31, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

That's alright - it's one of those things that needs explaining to every new user, so I can get kind of crabby about it. That said, lots of pages still need (seemly) trimming; more editors welcome!
Jemann (talk) 02:11, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Challenge list generator for broad difficulty[edit]


On Broad difficulty page, could you please edit the challenge list generator so that it would add 100% line for the source text as well? (At the moment, this line is only present in the formatted text.)
Lithovore (talk) 16:36, March 25, 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism (Sean M sent me because I wasn't sure where to go)[edit]

Someone has posted something innapropriate and I thought I should mention it, since it's derogatory hate-speech terminology towards women. I do not know who to report it to, so hopefully this is a good place to try. Thank you for your assistance.

[Edit: trimmed the repetition] 21:48, April 19, 2015 (UTC)

Deleted, thanks for pointing it out - sometimes these things slip by the admins.
Jemann (talk) 00:02, April 20, 2015 (UTC)

So sorry, no clue why it repeated the post over and over![edit]

Wow, it did not look like that before I posted it. I'm so sorry! 21:49, April 19, 2015 (UTC)

No worries - easy enough for me to edit it down.
Jemann (talk) 00:03, April 20, 2015 (UTC)

Sorting things[edit]


I'm going to bother you now (sorry), since you're the most active admin :-)

I think I've made a way to sort the Fate category by price, rather than by name. (The default sort seems a bit odd here - it's fine for lists of familiar, grindeable actions, but what's the use in browsing Fate locks almost unordered?) By which I mean, I've just added one line to the end of the Fate template code :-)

The line is

which is basically

but with the Fate Cost parameter first turned into three digits with leading zeroes - because that is the least awful thing I could think to do to get wikia to sort 10 before 100. (There is probably a better way.)

It seems to work fine, though: everything with a "Fate Cost" is sorted in increasing order, and anything without a "Fate Cost" ends up at the very end.

As a respected wiki veteran person, could you tell me if this is all right? And if it is, could you add it into the Fate template proper?

Thanks for your time, too! :-)

Indigofera (talk) 05:11, May 10, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, yes, not sure what's happened to the other admins.

Sounds cool. Pity that the categories end up as '0' and '1', but I can live with that. Added!
Jemann (talk) 05:53, May 10, 2015 (UTC)
True. Fixed! :-)

New version of that line:

- - -

Thanks - but that well-hidden space was the main point! =D This one:

Category:Fate| Card}}|noreplace}}

(The 'noreplace' is there so that banner templates like Retired get priority in setting the key.)

Indigofera (talk) 08:09, May 16, 2015 (UTC)
Slightly off-topic: If Replace_Text were to become available, I'd like to apply for piloting it at some point -- first creating a template similar to Template:IL for action results (item/quality gain/loss, linked to the respective thumbnail icons) followed by some large-scale replacements across basically all pages.

I have no idea how that would affect people's ability to edit pages in visual mode, but my understanding is this is already hard?
Achris (talk) 14:30, May 18, 2015 (UTC)
Sorry guys - I've been pretty busy with work. I can start looking at wiki stuff again in June.
Jemann (talk) 09:13, May 21, 2015 (UTC)
OK, back again. If tempates still need editing (and you don't have permission), please let me know. I just applied those suggested changes to Template:Action; not sure if Template:Fate still needs changing.
Jemann (talk) 04:54, June 3, 2015 (UTC)

I have an idea that would make category pages more easily navigable[edit]

I started playing Fallen London a few weeks ago, and have found this wiki to be very useful. However, it has a few problems that are very frustrating to new players.

First, the way that item source categories are put together. For almost all of these, there's just a long list of storylets that have something to do with the item in question-- it's not always even ones that give the item, sometimes it's options that REQUIRE the item, which is supposed to be its own category.

I have only found one page that does not do this, and instead shows an actually useful format for figuring out where to obtain the item in question. This is the page in question:

As you can see, this page lists storylets, the requirements for playing each storylet, and the amount of the item in question that each storylet gives out. This is how these categories should be put together.

For contrast, here's the category page for sources of Whispered Secrets, which are easily at least as common as Glim:

This page provides no useful information. If you want to find out which options are the most reliable sources, your only choice is to click every single storylet and make notes of which are useful and which are not. This also means that there is no way to effectively find a source of this item without spoilers. I trust that you can understand how this is frustrating to a new player.

The second issue is in regard to the item pages themselves. Most item pages offer little information on what the item is. For example, is the item particularly related to a certain area (e.g., wine and honey with Veilgarden)? Is it generally associated with actions involving a particular quality (e.g., rostygold with Dangerous)? Does it have no meaningful use other than being sold to the Bazaar (e.g., Baptised Rattus Faber Corpse)?

This is of lesser import than the issue of the category pages, but it still is something that would be greatly appreciated. If the wiki doesn't have any more information on an item than the in-game description, then why even bother looking it up?

Thank you in advance for your consideration. I hope that you will find my ideas reasonable. I am aware that none of this would be immediate, but long-term change is better than no change at all.
Leafy Greens (talk) 17:13, May 15, 2015 (UTC)

About your first point, I agree but you have to keep in mind that like many wikia sites this site's contents are created by players for players and anyone is encouraged to contribute. So if you want something to be added you could do it yourself just like anyone else. So while you are clicking on each site to check for whispered secret gains you could just make a list like that one on the glim page, it's really easy, helps others on the way and propably yourself next time you want to grind them and misplaced your handwritten note. I was looking for something similar when I was doing the university term passing cycle and it wasn't there so I made a table myself, one day it might be useful for someone else, too :)

As for your second idea, you can't pin down a single purpose/connection for resources and if I remember correctly I haven't had a single one yet that was only good for selling to the Bazaar. Even if you don't see a purpose now it's very likely that you will need it later, so my advice is only sell things off if you really really need the Echos and try to keep at least a little stock of everything. Also usually it takes actions to create higher tier items that are worth more than 1 pence, so preferably sell cheap and common resources first (that's from my experience at least).
Pattern in Chaos (talk) 20:21, May 16, 2015 (UTC)
Can you point to an example where a Source Category for any item includes a page of an option which only references (or requires) that item and not provide it?
Adnoam (talk) 22:43, May 16, 2015 (UTC)

The first option. Technically it does end in SOMEONE getting the item... but it's not you, it's someone else.
Leafy Greens (talk) 17:17, May 17, 2015 (UTC)
It's still a source of a starveling cat - it shows you how to get one.

You look for such pages to know how to get the specified item. In this case - the page tells you that one possible source is to be the recipient of this specific social action (so you can request a friend to send you one). The page referenses botht he "Stareling Cat" category (since a starveling cat is a requirement for the sender) and the "Starveling Cat Sources" category (since a starveling cat is given to the recipient).

If you find a action page which doesn't provide an item yet references that item's Source category, then please flag it for one of us to fix (or fix yourself). I haven't encountered many such pages myself (always immediately fixed).
Adnoam (talk) 23:26, May 17, 2015 (UTC)

However, it has a few problems that are very frustrating to new players.

It has quite a bit more than "a few", from my experience, but that's not the topic here and you're right that it's still a very helpful resource :-)

As for Category:Glim Sources -- there are a few more pages structured like that one (e.g. Category:Proscribed Material Sources, Category:Inkling of Identity Sources, oddly-placed table in Foxfire Candle Stub, many quirk/progress gain pages) but you're right generally that the vast majority of them could be improved. As mentioned above by Pattern in Chaos, it's something everybody can start doing, and ultimately just a question of enough everybodies each assigning a few common items to themselves.

I promise that you can throw up the raw data on the respective pages in whatever format suits your workflow best, and if nobody else gets to it first, I'll personally clean it up and make it look nicer. That's what I did for Glim, for example, and I'm happy to lend however many more hands are required.

Your other points were covered above very well in my opinion, and I don't have anything to add. Trying to figure out what to sell and what to hold on to is a pretty hard task in the early game, but unfortunately there's no one easy way of truthfully providing that information. If you click on <Item> Uses and the category turns up empty, that might hint at the item being sale fodder for now, though.
Achris (talk) 14:44, May 18, 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the information! I'd go through the pages myself, but I don't want to spoil too much.

Also, I had an idea: what if we started tagging categories that need to be organized? It would be simple to just add the tag whenever one of the unorganized categories comes up, and would let other users know which pages need work. What do you think?
Leafy Greens (talk) 01:04, May 20, 2015 (UTC)

Duplicate Pic Deletion[edit]

Heyo! Could you delete File:Bohoposh2.png? It's a duplicate of bohoposh, and only admins can get rid of superfluous pics.

Er, for some reason the same user also uploaded a replacement of chap6 that was exactly the same as the original image, but I guess that doesn't really matter.

Anyway: have a nice day!
Ashdenej (talk) 19:55, May 22, 2015 (UTC)


I can no longer see comments at the bottom of Wiki pages.  Did this wikia change, or are my settings askew?
StarryWisdom (talk) 18:02, April 14, 2016 (UTC)

There's generally a slight delay before they load, so maybe the wikia script is failing for you (for whatever reason). Not under this wiki's control, to my knowledge.
Jemann (talk) 23:50, April 16, 2016 (UTC)

Possibly incorrect action information[edit]

I went to trim Make an impression on His Amused Lordship 2 and Make an impression on His Amused Lordship 3 , and I think that some of the text for different actions got mixed up, because the success text on 2 is the same as an entirely different action involving His Amused Lordship, Go to the Palace. I don't have the actual action open/available, so I didn't want to edit it without asking an admin about it. Is it something I should fix, or...?
Sgtspill (talk) 15:42, August 5, 2016 (UTC)

From the looks of things, the result on 2 should be pretty much the same as on 3, yes. Best course would be to add a comment to #2 about the results needing confirmation.
Jemann (talk) 03:50, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

A couple SMEN page-conversion issues[edit]

St Arthur's Candle (Card) should be moved to St Arthur's Candle (old) as, well, the new version of the same event is technically still a card. The new version should I guess then be St Arthur's Candle (card) instead?

Also St Beau's Candle got moved to St Beau's Candle (old) as part of trying to add stuff but never got put back. St Beau's Candle (Seeking Road Storylet) should be changed to St Beau's Candle (Seeking Road option) or something similar since it isn't a storylet itself. 00:43, August 11, 2016 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'm not really following the game or the wiki any more. If any of these edits requires special admin-y powers then let me know, but it sounds like most of this can be achieved through judicious editing (and possibly tedious discussion). The joys of collaboration!
Jemann (talk) 07:12, August 12, 2016 (UTC)
I created an account to be able to rename the various pages. The wiki seems to have decided I'm renaming too many things at once and has stopped me from renaming the rest, though.

Also this process is leaving a whole bunch of pages to be deleted in its wake. Nothing much I can do about that though, I guess.
Optimatum (talk) 23:00, August 15, 2016 (UTC)

Redirect not working[edit]

So the page Mrs Plenty's Carnival properly redirects to Category:Mrs Plenty's Carnival, but for some reason Mrs Plenty's Carnival (SMEN) won't properly redirect to Category:Mrs Plenty's Carnival (SMEN). The only thing I could find in the wikia document on redirects is something about special characters like apostrophes in redirects causing them to not redirect automatically, but that doesn't seem to be true here as the first example works fine. Any clue what's going on?
Optimatum (talk) 00:02, August 31, 2016 (UTC)

Nope, I couldn't work it out either.
Jemann (talk) 23:38, August 31, 2016 (UTC)

FL wiki active admins[edit]


We've noticed that currently the FL wiki doesn't seem to have any active admins tending to it.

Looking at the admin list, it seems that none are active today (most have not been on the site in many months, if not years). 

Would you agree that we should be adding a few more active admins ot the wiki, who can be more involved day to day? At a minimum, there are piling tasks of cleaning up Trimmed pages' history, and going over candidates for deletion, etc. There were also some disagreements a while back on the "proper" layout and style of one of the pages, with some people re-doing others' work back-and-forth, and no admin to settle on one direction.

Both Rahv7 and myself are willing to take on the role of admin. While we're not experts on how wikia works behind the scenes, we're both very active wiki contributors (have been for a while now), and are very active both in game, on the FL forums, and on the FL sub-reddit /r/fallenlondon (of which Rahv7 is a moderator).

I'd very much like to hear you thoughts on this.
Adnoam (talk) 11:33, November 17, 2016 (UTC)

Yes, at one stage I'd hoped Aximillio and Achris were taking over, but they seem to have both drifted off. So status granted! Try not to wreck the place.
Jemann (talk) 23:38, November 17, 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! We'll try to do our best.

ONe of the first things I want to do is to handle all the Trimmed pages (to play nice with what FBG expect and protect their copyrighted work). The more this is delayed, more of the pages' history will be lost when its cleaned up (as people keep updaing the wiki).

The category's instruction page indicates that the idea was to "delete and restore" the page.

Do you know what was the process for handling this correctly? (Did Aximillio do most of this cleanup?) Is it simply a matter of saving the current text source, deleting it, and creating a new one in its name with the old one's saved text source?
Adnoam (talk) 07:23, November 18, 2016 (UTC)
It's as easy as pressing Delete (from the Edit dropdown), entering Reason as 250-rule. Once deleted, navigate back to the just-deleted page, and Restore the latest version. Simple enough that a bot could do it, although it's good to check that the trimming wasn't a complete hash first. If you're nervous, maybe copy the source text first?
Jemann (talk) 01:06, November 19, 2016 (UTC)